[NL2-NL10] No value out of completed flush draws

    • revs90
      revs90
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.04.2010 Posts: 60
      Hand #1:

      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.02/$0.05 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)

      Known players:
      UTG1:
      $1.17
      UTG2:
      $3.16
      MP1:
      $2.50
      MP2 (Hero):
      $14.91
      MP3:
      $8.51
      CO:
      $2.08
      BU:
      $3.27
      SB:
      $1.63
      BB:
      $5.00


      Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A, T.
      3 folds, Hero raises to $0.20, 2 folds, BU calls $0.20, 2 folds.

      Flop: ($0.47) 3, J, 3 (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.30, BU calls $0.30.

      Turn: ($1.07) 4 (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.70, BU folds, Hero gets uncalled bet back.

      Final Pot: $1.07.


      Hand #2:

      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.02/$0.05 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)

      Known players:
      SB (Hero):
      $14.38
      BB:
      $2.32
      UTG1:
      $5.33
      UTG2:
      $5.00
      MP1:
      $8.05
      MP2:
      $4.27
      MP3:
      $10.34
      CO:
      $8.07
      BU:
      $1.95


      Preflop: Hero is SB with A, T.
      UTG1 folds, UTG2 calls $0.05, 2 folds, MP3 calls $0.05, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.03, BB checks.

      Flop: ($0.2) K, 9, 5 (4 players)
      Hero bets $0.15, BB folds, UTG2 calls $0.15, MP3 folds.

      Turn: ($0.5) 6 (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.30, UTG2 calls $0.30.

      River: ($1.1) J (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.80, UTG2 folds, Hero gets uncalled bet back.

      Final Pot: $1.1.


      This seems to happen all the time, what am I doing wrong? Playing Rush btw.
  • 5 replies
    • Mstlc
      Mstlc
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.03.2009 Posts: 4,676
      Nothing... this is pretty much people peeling the flop with a pair usually.

      What you should do imo is make your turn bets slightly bigger in both hands. If he's calling $0.70 there, he'll most likely call $0.75 to... if he calls $0.30, he'll probably call $0.35... etc. This doesn't seem much but it's a an extra blind you win there alone and it makes the river pot 2bb bigger to, allowing you to make a larger valuebet there to. Poker is all about small edges and an easy way to exploit your edge is to get the maximum value you can.
    • revs90
      revs90
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.04.2010 Posts: 60
      What I'm wondering is what could he call me with on both the flop & turn that he could fold to my river bet? It's not like I overbet the pot making it too obvious.

      Guess you're right about the small edges though. Hadn't though about it that way. Bet 20c into a 20c pot, it becomes a 60c pot, if you only bet 15 it's 50 and you can get less value on later streets. (y) :f_grin:
    • Mstlc
      Mstlc
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.03.2009 Posts: 4,676
      Originally posted by revs90
      What I'm wondering is what could he call me with on both the flop & turn that he could fold to my river bet? It's not like I overbet the pot making it too obvious.
      One of the hands he could have here for example is 98 or something... that hand made 2nd pair on the flop... on the turn it also picked up a gutshot but it's not really strong enough to call 3 bets with for the fish... usually the fish could have a lot of QJ, QT, JT kind of combo's and he's just chasing bare gutshots but I don't really see him getting away from any on those on the river since those hands all make a decent pair or a straight.

      If you're playing against a more aggro player it can pay off to sometimes check it to him to allow him to bluff but usually in these kinds of situations (on these boards) there's way more value in just betting your good hands then inducing bluffs from other player. If you're playing against a passive stationish player your hands are easy and straightforward to play... you play bet bet bet. That's why you will usually play every TPTK+ hand like that on nanostakes cause people simply pay you off with worse really easy.

      If the board in the second hand would be slightly different like this:

      J 9 5 - K - 6 you could check the river to induce a bluff against an aggresive player if you barreled on the turn. Cause it's quite possible you c-bet the flop, hit the king on the turn and barreled again and then check to pretend the river is scare card for you. But even then... most people just don't bluff on these stakes so it's better to just fire a 3rd time, a lot of people on NL2 & 5 won't get away from a J in this case for example.
    • revs90
      revs90
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.04.2010 Posts: 60
      Alright, I see, thank you.
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      Hi,


      I think Mstlc covered it pretty well. The main point being "when in doubt, bet". When you start getting some reads that for example villain from hand #1 loves to peel the flop with anything and bet the turn when checked to, by all means just check/raise that turn, he'll probably bet Jx as well most of the time and you'll stack his flushes anyway.

      As for hand #2 it's possible villain folded a K if he's somewhat decent. You bet three times into him even tho a flush is possible so people that have an okay idea of hand values will realize on some level that their K8 is likely no good. If he's fishy most likely he called the flop with some trash hand like QT with a spade and picked up a redraw on the turn.


      Hope it helps.