[NL2-NL10] NL25 - Common C-Bet Sizing Dilemma

    • Kknight
      Kknight
      Global
      Joined: 30.04.2007 Posts: 374
      This type of situation seems to come up very frequently (pot-size vs stack-size):

      I have a $5 (20BB) stack and opponent is a big stack (we'll say $25.) One limper, I raise to $1.25 (5BB) with a raising hand and the limper calls. Pot is $2.75 (11BB,) my remaining stack is $3.75 (15BB.) I miss the flop completely (either miss with overcards or there are one or two overcards on the flop and I have a medium pocket pair.) This is a four part question:

      1) I'm in position and the caller checks to me...uncoordinated flop
      2) I'm out of position...uncoordinated flop
      3) I'm in position and the caller checks to me...coordinated flop (something like 6 T J two-suited)
      4) I'm out of position...coordinated flop

      The dilemma is that with $2.75 in the pot, I should be c-betting $1.75-$2, but that only leaves me with $1.75-$2 in my stack. On the other hand, it feels like throwing away money to just push all-in for a c-bet in these situations.

      What I've been doing is c-betting $1.75 (leaving me with $2) and giving up to further action or a call (unless I make a hand on the turn of course.) I need to point out though that I play my made hands the same way. If I make a set or top pair or whatever, I c-bet $1.75 and then push to a raise or push on the turn.

      I guess the gist of the question is whether it is +EV to push all-in as a c-bet in these situations where I've got ~1.33x pot left in my stack and miss the flop. As I mentioned, it feels like throwing money away to do that, but the way I'm handling it now feels like I'm making it too easy to be bluffed off a hand with a raise or check-raise or whatever.

      Thoughts???

      Thanks,
      Kknight
  • 6 replies
    • Berliner1982
      Berliner1982
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.07.2006 Posts: 5,644
      I like you questions. :) Looks like you wanna improve your game. :)

      Their are no general answers for your question. It always depends on your opponent, his style. Is he very thight, passive, aggressive? From which position did he limp/callt preflop, on which limit. From which position do you raise. How does the flop is etc.

      It´s a combination of a lot of factors to decide what is more +EV. Sometimes its better not to make a C-Bet when you´re even IP and the board does not seems to fit you in any way. E.g its 3-connected and 2 suited with no Overcards and your opponent is a calling station.

      In the future when you have PT and PA you will also make judgements of your opponents with the stats you have from them (make take a private coaching ;) .

      For all your points I would say do the following against unknown:

      1.) C-Bet
      2.) C-Bet
      3.) C-Bet
      4.) C-Bet or check.

      So in total I would make a C-Bet in 90% of the times in the lower limits. Pushing all-In directly could be good sometimes against players who play very agressive against you, when the flop is uncoordinated, you maybe raised with 77 from the Button and the Flop comes 7 J 5 rainbow. Sometimes these aggressive players but you on OC and call you with a Jack, 99, 88 or Overcards.

      But their is no general answer, over the time you will develop a feeling for that.
    • Kknight
      Kknight
      Global
      Joined: 30.04.2007 Posts: 374
      Thanks for your replies Berliner. Yes, I am trying to improve my game. I'm still struggling with a bit of a downswing (although it seems to be getting a little better lately...actually, when I remove the NL50 stretch from the graph, it has been significantly better since moving back to NL25)...and when I review each session with my PT database, I can still say that most of my losses are just because I'm rarely hitting the flop or from bad luck. (There are a few "tilt-induced" losses from pushing when I know that I shouldn't, but not a significant percentage of the total loss amount.)

      But in addition to that, I'm looking for other big leaks that may be contributing to the downswing and I thought that "weak" c-bets may be one of them in situations like this where I have less than 1.5x the pot left behind.

      It seems that I'm getting run over quite a bit when I bet $1.75 into a $3.75 pot and leave $2 in my stack...way too many opponents raise or check-raise the other $2 to push me off the hand because they're big-stacked and it doesn't cost them much (or maybe it's just part of the bad luck and they are hitting EVERY SINGLE FLOP that I'm missing :rolleyes: :) ) That's why the question was more related to the size of the c-bet in these situations than whether or not to make a c-bet.

      I do have PT and PA already, but even with over 10K hands at this limit, I still have very few opponents that I have enough hands on to use for read purposes. How many hands would you say that you need on an opponent before the "folds to c-bet" stat becomes useful?

      Thanks as always,
      Kknight
    • Berliner1982
      Berliner1982
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.07.2006 Posts: 5,644
      When you have 50 cases you have a first tendency.
      For you big leaks, I recommend a 2 hour private coaching if you can afford that, where your games gets watched and you get a review later. That might will help you. But maybe you´re really on a bad luck trip.
    • Kknight
      Kknight
      Global
      Joined: 30.04.2007 Posts: 374
      Originally posted by Berliner1982
      When you have 50 cases you have a first tendency.
      Ok, that's good to know. Basically I have a few opponents that I have hundreds of hands on and then hundreds/thousands of opponents that I have like 5 hands on ;) LOL But I know that it'll get more and more useful as I gather more stats.

      For you big leaks, I recommend a 2 hour private coaching if you can afford that, where your games gets watched and you get a review later. That might will help you.
      That's something I'd definitely like to consider. What does it cost? Maybe I can do it within the next month or two. We are catching up from some hospital bills and stuff at the moment.

      But maybe you´re really on a bad luck trip.
      I definitely think that's a big part of it. I review every single one of my played hands after a session and most of my losses have been from:

        - A hand I have dominated sucking out
        - Someone calling me with complete junk and getting lucky
        - Me missing the flop completely and getting bet into, forcing a fold
        - or Running a strong hand into a better one preflop (KK vs AA, AK vs AA, etc)

      Not much I can do to control any of those factors. But I know that I need to look for leaks as well, since they can be a contributing factor even if the majority is caused by a bad luck streak.

      Thanks,
      Kknight
    • Berliner1982
      Berliner1982
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.07.2006 Posts: 5,644
      With "50 cases" I mean of course that your opponent was facing a C-Bet 50 times where he had to decide. Not 50 hands. ;)
    • Kknight
      Kknight
      Global
      Joined: 30.04.2007 Posts: 374
      Oh OK, thanks for clearing that up...I thought you meant 50 hands.

      Thanks,
      Kknight