Quiz answer dichotomy re Overcards on dry flop family pot

    • Waiboy
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      From the How do you play overcards? quiz we have the following:

      Question 1.
      Preflop: Hero is CO with A:club:  J:club:
      MP2 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, BU calls, SB calls, BB calls, MP2 calls.

      Flop: (10 SB) 6:spade: 6:heart: 2:diamond:  (5 players)
      SB checks, BB checks, MP2 bets, Hero ???

      What do you do?
      fold (2 Points)
      call (1 Points)
      raise (0 Points)

      Your answer fold (2 Points)

      As established in the Overcards 2.0 article, a raise is not profitable here. UTG shows extreme strength with his bet into 4 opponents, so continue playing according to odds & outs.

      1) How many discounted outs do you have?
      It's a dry board and the UTG bets into more than 2 opponents, so you give yourself 3 outs.

      2) How big is the pot?
      The pot size is 11 SB.

      3) How high are the costs?
      There are 3 more players behind you, which you know nothing of. You can thus expect more than 1 SB in costs. UTG shows extreme strength with his bet, however, which implies that the others will raise less seldom since they won't expect themselves to be ahead and don't want to be 3-bet.

      4) Comparison between pot odds and odds: deciding between a call and a fold
      3 outs correspond to ~14.5:1 odds. You only get 11:1.1 = 10:1 pot odds, though. As you only have overcards and don't even know whether you will win if you hit one of them, it would be nonsense to even think about implied odds. This means you fold.

      From the Weak Draws quiz we have the following almost exact hand with a different solution:

      Question 2:
      Preflop: You are UTG with A:spade:  , Q:spade:  (6 players)
      You raise, MP calls, 1 fold, BU calls, SB calls, BB calls

      Flop: (11 SB) 7:heart:  , 7:diamond:  , 3:club:  (5 players)
      SB checks, BB bets, You?

      You open-raise AQs and get involved in a family pot. To top it all off, the big blind suddenly donks into the big field. How do you react?

      fold (0 Points)
      raise (1 Points)
      call (2 Points)

      Your answer fold (0 Points)

      Big pots and paired flops are naturally an open invitation for bluffs. In a 3-handed pot, you would have to raise in order to get the third player out of the hand. In a pot with so many opponents, the BB's donk rarely is a bluff, though. Raising is thus a bad idea; you would probably end up isolating yourself against better hands. Trips would most likely attempt to set a trap here and check/raise the flop - or even the turn. The big blind can often be put on A3 or a pocket pair, meaning folding would be too weak. Your outs are usually clean and not dominated. In case you hit a pair, you might be paid off by a weaker ace or a worse queen.

      There are only minor differences between the two scenarios. All else being equal, which answer holds the greater merit?
  • 4 replies
    • skimon
      Joined: 29.05.2008 Posts: 329
      MP2 already showed us to be passive by limp/calling preflop, I think his donk on this flop shows a lot more strength than the BB calling with his 9:1 outs.
      Had to look at it several times, but I think it makes kind of sense, you can still call the upper one for 1 point tho :s_cool:
    • Waiboy
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      This is true! Neither answer references that aspect so I'm not sure it makes too much difference to the more correct play. I think the focus of the question is how to react to a donk bet into four opponents on a dry board with Axs overcards where the pre flop action is passive.
    • Dawnfall26
      Joined: 30.07.2008 Posts: 3,116

      Both hands look like a call to me. AJ is a call for me since you very often have 6outs and MP2(obvious fish) is so very rarely donking 7x here as they really like to slowplay or whatever.

      AQ on the other hand has better odds and bit better outs so call looks fine to me as well.
    • redskwerl
      Joined: 03.03.2008 Posts: 3,802
      yes you should definitely call in both hands
      i mean if you fold AJ, you are basically folding all your no pair hands.. so like what would you ever call with? only your flopped monsters?

      btw these quizzes often have pretty ridiculous answers imo