Ideal "Non Showdown winnings"

    • UeYa
      UeYa
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.09.2009 Posts: 96
      Hello I read in some posts that some players care a lot on the "non showdown winnings" curve in trackers' graphs, someone wrote also that had to work on it.

      Why is it that important? In my May graph I see that my "amount won" ( about 60$) and "money won with showdown coincide with it while the "non showdown winnings" leads to 0, is this correct? What does it mean in my game style?
  • 15 replies
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Break even red line means that you are super awesome because my red line is break even too! Cowabunga dude!
    • UeYa
      UeYa
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.09.2009 Posts: 96
      Doh! So it means that this month I'm kinda doing good...oh well I was doing good...had +60$ until yesterday and the weekenders stole me 13$ X(

      I should really avoid playing on weekends ;(

      Yesterday I had KK on the btn, a raise from MP and I 3bet the guy, he calls....on flop and turn two 90% pot bets and he calls and finally finds the magic flush on river with his beautiful K6s ... Yuppieeeeeeeee! :s_cry:
    • alenstrat
      alenstrat
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.03.2009 Posts: 821
      I'd also appreciate if someone explains this, I've also seen this mentioned a lot.

      My logic would be that negative non showdown winnings means you are folding when in a hand more then you are making others fold, plus you are folding more blinds then you are stealing blinds. The sum of all this is negative, thus non-showdown winnings are negative? ?(
    • peche025
      peche025
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.12.2008 Posts: 1,387
      alenstrat you basically summed it up, negative non-showdown winnings means you are folding after investing money in a pot. Whether or not this is important is a matter of debate. It could mean a leak in your game and maybe you need to look for spots where you can be more aggressive for example with draws. But most importantly is the winnings as long as this is going up it's the most important thing.
    • wowadvisor
      wowadvisor
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 741
      i hate all my graphs.. i got really really high non showdown winnings... but really really low show down winnings :(

      i dont extract enough value with big hands and make people fold before showdown and i take my medium hands to showdown too much :(


      i tried everything :(
    • alenstrat
      alenstrat
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.03.2009 Posts: 821
      Originally posted by peche025
      alenstrat you basically summed it up, negative non-showdown winnings means you are folding after investing money in a pot. Whether or not this is important is a matter of debate. It could mean a leak in your game and maybe you need to look for spots where you can be more aggressive for example with draws. But most importantly is the winnings as long as this is going up it's the most important thing.
      So this would then mean there is no set formula for this statistical aspect of poker? Seems like nonshowdown vs. showdown winnings might vary a lot according to psychological makeup/playing style, but there can be very different mixes of both among winning players?

      For example according to what wowadvisor said, I assume he's a very aggresive player and wins using this, whereas others might win the same amount overall just extracting a lot of value with smaller value bets on good hands, while folding alot of marginal hands - this player would probably have quite negative nonshowdown and very positive showdown.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      I've seen nits with positive NSD, seen LAGs with negative NSD etc, etc. fuck NSD, SD, LSD only thing that matters is actual profit
    • Zemnieks11
      Zemnieks11
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.07.2009 Posts: 567
      Originally posted by wowadvisor
      i hate all my graphs.. i got really really high non showdown winnings... but really really low show down winnings :(

      i dont extract enough value with big hands and make people fold before showdown and i take my medium hands to showdown too much :(


      i tried everything :(
      i would like to see your hands or some..cos i have low NSD. I would like to learn how you play to keep NSD positive and if its that profitable!
    • wowadvisor
      wowadvisor
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 741
      well i have been profitable every month now playing NL25 FR BSS but im just too aggresive and my good hands dont get a lot of value but my marginal hands and bluff hands get a lot of value if you know what i mean
    • HannesNL
      HannesNL
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.11.2008 Posts: 4,590
      I win with non sd and sd, yay!

      check-raise a lot for red line, run good for blue line.
    • conall88
      conall88
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      Originally posted by wowadvisor
      i hate all my graphs.. i got really really high non showdown winnings... but really really low show down winnings :(

      i dont extract enough value with big hands and make people fold before showdown and i take my medium hands to showdown too much :(


      i tried everything :(
      you tried finding more spots to raise instead of going all in?
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Well the problem on the lower limits is that fish tend to call more often then fold. And if you can't make people fold you can't have positive NSDW.

      Just yesterday i played a hand where i had 86s on the BU and BB fish called. Flop came 9 10 J rainbow and he called my C-bet. Turn was an A so i decided to second barrel and get called again. River was a K so i just gave up. Then came a showdown and he mucks. Turns out he called me down with 57o and a bottom end of a gutshot.

      I mean no wonder i can't get my NSDW to breakeven, if people like that call you down everytime they hit some bottom pair or a gutter on the flop. But on the other hand instead of winning a small pot on the flop or just taking the blinds which would get my NSDW up, i won a big pot at showdown. No wonder my showdown winnings are astronomicly high considering my every good hand gets paid off. In case a guy like that hits his gutshot and u've got the upper end of a strait your getting his stack always.
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      It's weird for me, at PartyPoker NL2 over 25k hands my showdown winnings were below 0 whilst my Non-Showdown winnings were way up there giving me $30 profit.
      But at the beginning of August I moved to Pokerstars, i've played 16k hands so far and my NSD winnings are at 0 and my SD winnings are the same as my overall winnings ?( I don't even think i've changed my game.
    • taavi1337
      taavi1337
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.05.2009 Posts: 2,920
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Just yesterday i played a hand where i had 86s on the BU and BB fish called. Flop came 9 10 J rainbow and he called my C-bet. Turn was an A so i decided to second barrel and get called again. River was a K so i just gave up. Then came a showdown and he mucks. Turns out he called me down with 57o and a bottom end of a gutshot.
      You both had the same hand and the pot should have been split if you didn't have a flush.
    • MrMardyBum
      MrMardyBum
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.03.2009 Posts: 2,206
      Originally posted by Wriggers
      It's weird for me, at PartyPoker NL2 over 25k hands my showdown winnings were below 0 whilst my Non-Showdown winnings were way up there giving me $30 profit.
      But at the beginning of August I moved to Pokerstars, i've played 16k hands so far and my NSD winnings are at 0 and my SD winnings are the same as my overall winnings ?( I don't even think i've changed my game.
      You may not have changed your game, but you have changed your opponents :)