Pocket pairs and set value calls/raises

    • UeYa
      UeYa
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.09.2009 Posts: 96
      [Question 1]
      According to BSS starting hand chart 22-99 should be called from EP and raised from late; but if we fold many EP pocket pairs aren't we loosing lot of spots for set value?

      [Question 2]
      We're in MP and hold a 44, shc says to call and not raise but 90% of times you will be raised from late positions and here comes the call20 rule; what if we directly raise and limit the field to those hands you want to be payed with sets (e.g. AK, AA, KK)? This should work more as a block-bet in order to limit the usual reraise.
      I mean if you limp-in then got raised 3bb more, your investment in the spot is total 4BB while if you raise 3bb directly you're saving 1BB/spot...am I wrong?
  • 12 replies
    • MJQuads
      MJQuads
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.01.2008 Posts: 372
      AK, AA or KK will 3-bet you anyway, so you will be investing cca 12BB to see the flop instead of 4BB if you just limp/call.
      Though, playing PP also depends on the table (FR / SH). At SH you tend to always raise first in with your PP, whereas things are a bit different at FR.
    • UeYa
      UeYa
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.09.2009 Posts: 96
      Ooops I forgot to mention FR :)
    • degre
      degre
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.04.2009 Posts: 413
      I don't know your level, so let me say that I'm talking from my experience of a novice player.
      My goal is to play the more comfortable I can, neat calls means less mistakes.


      You raise in late positions for steal value, then if called you still have the valid option of a cbet.

      Earlier on you want to see the flop in the cheapest possible way and then evaluate your actions, limping you might see the flop with 1bb or you might get a raise, which you then decide if you want to call or not, but raising you might get reraised and the would put you off for good. Else you could raise and get 2/3 callers, where a cbet wont be much of an option, so without a hit it would be a difficult play, difficult plays usually generate mistakes.

      You might want to raise from MP3 if you know the players after you, without loose players you might have an option, but I'll forget anything earlier until you have a good solid game.
    • cryoburn
      cryoburn
      Silver
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 322
      I'd always limp call small pocket pairs from EP to MP and raise them from around MP depending on the opponents behind me. Since at micros you'll get paid off a lot with your sets it's always profitable to see a flop with a pair. But if there are aggressive 3bettors behind me while around MP I prefer to limp/call than to open raise and having to fold vs a 3B by a player behind me. Small pp OOP in 3B pots will cost you.

      When in LP I always open raise them. You'll have the set value and position. So you can take down the pot with a flop cbet many times and with a 2nd barrel vs floating opponents with high fold vs turn cbet %.

      Therefore investing 1BB when limping and 4BB when limp/calling is profitable comparing to the return you'll get when you hit your set.

      But also be aware of the solid tight players behind you who know how to lay down a hand when they feel they're behind. Your set won't be as profitable vs them. Against them I'd limp/fold a more unless there where other weak players in the pot.
    • N0pr3s3n7
      N0pr3s3n7
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 14.05.2009 Posts: 1,274
      This works only on the lowest limits because your play becomes so exploitable that can be spotted by a regular with HEM.Meaning if you limp low pairs , you should be limping more hands to balance.
    • cryoburn
      cryoburn
      Silver
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 322
      Originally posted by N0pr3s3n7
      This works only on the lowest limits because your play becomes so exploitable that can be spotted by a regular with HEM.Meaning if you limp low pairs , you should be limping more hands to balance.
      Exactly. This only works in the lowest limits as it is very exploitable to just limp small pp. And even at these limits there are a few regulars actually paying attention.

      When moving up limits limping small pp in EP is def a mistake.
    • Escobario
      Escobario
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2009 Posts: 183
      iv often wondered similar things tbh...

      like all the times u open with a spp and get 3bet by somone with tight 3bet stats, ur pretty much forced into folding where u could potentially get ur 22 against an AA on a 2QT board if u limp called

      then again... a few of the more decent players see u limp and know its usually ez money to isolate against, they could have any hand or suited connector which wont stack off against ur set without having u beat.

      when in doubt, follow the strategy articles.. on that note, looks like i have a few more to read :D
    • jass1960
      jass1960
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.04.2010 Posts: 709
      But you also have to beware...

      I just limped in with pocket 55 and missed the flop which was AQ8 - there were still 5 in the pot so I hit the Check/fold button and amazingly was still in the pot when the 5 hit on the turn......

      I of course made merry only to be be crushed by someone with pocket AA.....

      I have heard of slowplay!!! But calling the blinds with AA and checking the flop with AAA........
    • degre
      degre
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.04.2009 Posts: 413
      Something similar happened to me a few days ago while I was holding KQs, limped in from MP3 and flopped KKA, was 3 or 4 ways, don't remember... anyway, flop went all check, on the river with a Q I've placed my bet and I've got shoved all-in, which I've called as to me there was no possible better hand, the dude had AK.

      Occasionally you'll find people limping these hands, but take a note on them and overall don't bother too much, things like this just don't happen often enough to make statistic.
    • Hahaownedlolz
      Hahaownedlolz
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.04.2009 Posts: 1,755
      Originally posted by jass1960
      But you also have to beware...

      I just limped in with pocket 55 and missed the flop which was AQ8 - there were still 5 in the pot so I hit the Check/fold button and amazingly was still in the pot when the 5 hit on the turn......

      I of course made merry only to be be crushed by someone with pocket AA.....

      I have heard of slowplay!!! But calling the blinds with AA and checking the flop with AAA........

      Imo just calling preflop with AA is horrible. But many people i've seen in micro sng/tournaments will check sets 90% of the time. And then they will check/raise the turn or bet the turn with their monsters.
    • jass1960
      jass1960
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.04.2010 Posts: 709
      Not trying to steal your thread UeYa, but here is another thing to be aware of...

      Just limped in with 55 flop 752, turn 2 giving me a full house!!!

      Got battered by pocket 77!!!!
    • UeYa
      UeYa
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.09.2009 Posts: 96
      It happened to me with AQ, flop Q99, turn A, river Q...oppo had 99 :|
      Luckily he had only 11BB so I didn't go broke