Super Turbo players (FT-Micro)

    • Lizocain
      Lizocain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2009 Posts: 173
      Hey all, I started playing superturbos (2$) on FT like a month ago. It seems to be ok, variance is huge but yet didn't loose with it, actually im quite surprised I had like 150BI+ but I'm really unsure about some hands also there's a big problem with multitabling..whenever I open more then 9 tables at once, I start loosing like hell, I review every session in the end, and the pushes were ok, when I change back to 9 tables or less everything is going the way it supposed to go, 30%+ ITM, where at 16tabling its like 15%. It really sounds stupid as I write it down, but the only thing that comes to my mind is, WTF ? whats happening then?:)

      Is anyone here a mass grinder of these superturbos? Also some hand ranges im unsure..lets say 1st blind level mp1 with 22-33-44 KT+ QJ+ A2-A9 TJ+ 78s+ what you do with these hands? I'd like anyone who plays or played these superturbos and share some experience, ideas, ranges etc.

      btw I played around 1.5k of these sngs, dont know the roi exactly I changed PCs so database is gone, but sharkscope says around 10%, tho I remember less, maybe 6-7%, I know I had 5%~ EV.
  • 29 replies
    • Anssi
      Anssi
      Black
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 2,173
      Originally posted by Lizocain

      Is anyone here a mass grinder of these superturbos? Also some hand ranges im unsure..lets say 1st blind level mp1 with 22-33-44 KT+ QJ+ A2-A9 TJ+ 78s+ what you do with these hands? I'd like anyone who plays or played these superturbos and share some experience, ideas, ranges etc.
      .
      Fold. Pocket pairs are maybe +EV to shove from late MPs. You really should check that with sitngo wizard.

      I find 16 tables too much on Full Tilt, I'd stick with 12.
    • Lizocain
      Lizocain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2009 Posts: 173
      I checked with sngwiz but the ranges there are really tight, for example first hand utg 99 TT it says to fold, but I can't fold that in a superturbo with 10bb.
      Do you play tiles or cascade ppl? Coz I do tiles with 9 tables I see everything just fine, with more then that, some tables are going above each other..the only problem is, that in superturbos its really hard to find out anything about the ppl, I always mark those who are very loose or very tight, but usually you dont see a fish playing superturbos over and over again. Anssi you play these sngs?
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,950
      Originally posted by Lizocain
      I checked with sngwiz but the ranges there are really tight, for example first hand utg 99 TT it says to fold, but I can't fold that in a superturbo with 10bb
      You have to. You can guarantee some idiot will call you with two overcards, and then you're just spewing equity to the other 7 people. Have a look here.
    • Lizocain
      Lizocain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2009 Posts: 173
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      Originally posted by Lizocain
      I checked with sngwiz but the ranges there are really tight, for example first hand utg 99 TT it says to fold, but I can't fold that in a superturbo with 10bb
      You have to. You can guarantee some idiot will call you with two overcards, and then you're just spewing equity to the other 7 people. Have a look here.
      I've checked out the site. The headsup part seems a bit too loose, I rather stick there with my reads, then pushin most of the time 40-60% of my hands without adjusting to opponent.. still folding 99-AQ seems so hard when I see ppl calling with real trash, like A2-A8 in early game.

      jbpatzer you are regular at these games?
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,950
      Originally posted by Lizocain
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      Originally posted by Lizocain
      I checked with sngwiz but the ranges there are really tight, for example first hand utg 99 TT it says to fold, but I can't fold that in a superturbo with 10bb
      You have to. You can guarantee some idiot will call you with two overcards, and then you're just spewing equity to the other 7 people. Have a look here.
      I've checked out the site. The headsup part seems a bit too loose, I rather stick there with my reads, then pushin most of the time 40-60% of my hands without adjusting to opponent.. still folding 99-AQ seems so hard when I see ppl calling with real trash, like A2-A8 in early game.

      jbpatzer you are regular at these games?
      I used to play them a lot, but the variance is just monstrous, so I stopped (i.e. I started with a heater and stopped after big downswing!).

      The unexploitable Nash equilibrium for heads up with 10BB is to push 60% and call 40%. Doesn't mean it's the most +EV play of course. If Villain calls much tighter than this you can profitably push ATC. Have a look at this. The chap who seems to have these beaten blogs here.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      I'll go into this in more detail later, but the ICM does NOT say that you should be very risk-averse early. You are much more risk-averse near the bubble than you are 9-handed. If you take a coin-flip early, particularly with an overlay from the blinds, that's not a disaster.

      The super turbo site linked recommends ranges which are much too tight. One reason is that the author required a huge edge for pushing. If a hand was supposed to show a profit of 0.30% of the prize pool, he wouldn't include it in the pushing range. However, you simply don't have the luxury of passing up edges that large. You get a high ROI by identifying edges and taking them, not by turning your nose up at larger and larger edges.

      I recommend training a lot with ICM Trainer to prepare for super turbos. Also use the Nash calculator. For example, here is the Nash equilibrium for the first hand. Your opponents might not be playing the Nash ranges, so you might modify your play accordingly. If you think your opponents will call too widely, then you might drop weaker semibluffing hands like JTs. However, you should still find pushing hands like 99, AJo, and KQs to be clearly profitable 4 off the button, and those would not be at the bottom of my pushing range.
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,950
      Originally posted by pzhon
      I'll go into this in more detail later, but the ICM does NOT say that you should be very risk-averse early. You are much more risk-averse near the bubble than you are 9-handed. If you take a coin-flip early, particularly with an overlay from the blinds, that's not a disaster.

      The super turbo site linked recommends ranges which are much too tight. One reason is that the author required a huge edge for pushing. If a hand was supposed to show a profit of 0.30% of the prize pool, he wouldn't include it in the pushing range. However, you simply don't have the luxury of passing up edges that large. You get a high ROI by identifying edges and taking them, not by turning your nose up at larger and larger edges.

      I recommend training a lot with ICM Trainer to prepare for super turbos. Also use the Nash calculator. For example, here is the Nash equilibrium for the first hand. Your opponents might not be playing the Nash ranges, so you might modify your play accordingly. If you think your opponents will call too widely, then you might drop weaker semibluffing hands like JTs. However, you should still find pushing hands like 99, AJo, and KQs to be clearly profitable 4 off the button, and those would not be at the bottom of my pushing range.
      Wow, that's actually a real eyeopener. Thanks for that!
    • Lizocain
      Lizocain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2009 Posts: 173
      I just had a very bad session, the typical full tilt issue happend now in a row like 10 times..CO push AJ, sb call AQ, BU push A9 bb call AT MP3 push 99 sb call TT and over and over again this happend. from 30sng made in the money in 3, just because I had at max 3 outs at these pushes..also all the -EV pushes just faced a monster sitting in the BB, where i got no other chance then push or loose my remaining FE..I'm pushing aprox what nash says so I wonder where should I improve, I do alot of pushes on the bubble if I have slight lead aswell
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,950
      Look, the variance is huge, huge, HUGE! You either have to accept that, suck it up and keep playing if you think you have an edge, or play something with smaller variance. Try playing them successive and stacked. That way, you won't see the bad beats that you give and get. Make the right play and move on to the next table.
    • Lizocain
      Lizocain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2009 Posts: 173
      Yeah I know variance is huge, just when you lose too many sngs in a row you blame urself, even if you had to do the moves you did..sucks to not see the flaw when you search, but I got used to it
    • Leito99
      Leito99
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.07.2009 Posts: 754
      Originally posted by pzhon

      here is the Nash equilibrium for the first hand.
      whats going on with this site??

      i cant get on it

      is it closed down or something?
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      I also can't connect to the Nash calculator at the moment. I hope that it is only temporarily down.

      You can also calculate the Nash equilibrium within the PokerStrategy ICM Trainer program. Go to ICM calculation, and set the FGS edge and Hero edge to 0.

      I have gotten slightly different values from ICM Trainer than from the Nash calculator. I'm not sure if this comes from rounding errors, or slightly different algorithms.
    • alenstrat
      alenstrat
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.03.2009 Posts: 821
      I think you can only seriously play hyperturbo if you plan to really grind them, and play mainly for rakeback profit you'll get from playing shear volume close around breakeven or with small profit.

      I'd like to see if anyone really makes a really big ROI on them. As said several times variance is sick there. I for example played with a small profit for like 300 of them, then had a SICK :f_o: :f_mad: streak of 15 in a row where I was out EVERY single time on the first hand I shoved, and like 90% of those were 70/30 flips. :f_o: There I said, ok let's go look for something more profitable.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Super turbos can be profitable even before rakeback. Check the Sharkscope leader boards. One player has maintained an ROI of 10% over about 37,000 super turbos with an average stake of $4. I believe most of those were played before the recent changes in stakes at Full Tilt.

      The ROI of a typical expert super turbo player is lower than the ROI of an expert turbo player. However, that might not mean less $/hour, since super turbos take less time to complete. You may also find that you can play a different number of tables at the same time.

      If you do have a lower ROI, the consequence is that you will see larger downswings. Cutting your win rate in half means you will see downswings which are twice as large (in buy-ins), and break-even stretches last 4 times as long (in tournaments).
    • Lizocain
      Lizocain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2009 Posts: 173
      going for the rakeback....well, then you need to play big ones, at least 30$ superturbos, otherwise the rake is really small..you're edge is small no matter what, i rarely found "noobs" on the bubble, when I did, I won but thats like once every 30-40 sng, which is very low..in the normal turbos you find much more fishes..37k sng 10% roi..thats insane big imo, i've seen alot of players with around 1-2k sngs having 10-15% roi but thats a very big luck..meaning u never loose 70-30, even 55-45..quite frankly, if you dont lose those, ur really lucky.. I stopped because my BR just went down and down (im after a big cashout so gotta start all from the beginning and cash is lower variance, more chance to win then these stbs sadly)
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Originally posted by Lizocain
      going for the rakeback....well, then you need to play big ones, at least 30$ superturbos, otherwise the rake is really small.
      An advantage of super turbos is that they are very fast. They take an average of about 15 minutes. So, some people can play 50/hour, which means getting a few cents rakeback per tournament can add up to something significant.

      Another perspective is that 27% rakeback on 5% rake boosts your ROI by about 1.3%. If your ROI at the table at your current stake is 5%, then to make as much money playing for twice the stakes, your ROI at the table needs to be only about 1.85% at the higher level, not the 2.5% you might expect.

      Superturbos are not for everyone, but some players have a large skill advantage in them, and make a decent profit.

      The mathematical variance per tournament is not larger than in other 50-30-20 tournaments. However, you might play tournaments more rapidly, so that you see the swings faster, and it takes longer for skill to dominate if your ROI is lower.
    • TeddyTheKiller
      TeddyTheKiller
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.01.2008 Posts: 5,175
      What stakes do you play pzhon?
    • Leito99
      Leito99
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.07.2009 Posts: 754
      something strange in the link for the first hand

      if UTG shoves, then you can call 99 from BU but you have to fold it from the blinds

      is there a reason for that?
      it seems really strange
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Originally posted by Leito99
      something strange in the link for the first hand

      if UTG shoves, then you can call 99 from BU but you have to fold it from the blinds

      is there a reason for that?
      it seems really strange
      Good catch.

      The Nash calculator isn't perfect, and it only approximates the Nash equilibrium. In the 300 iterations, it sometimes doesn't have enough time to calculate a full table Nash equilibrium.

      According to the ICM, the big blind needs 48.87% equity against a pusher's range when the push is from outside the blinds. TT only has 48.033% equity against the 8.6% range suggested for the UTG player, so even TT is not a correct call from the big blind, and 99 is clearly wrong from the button. However, perhaps the UTG player is supposed to be pushing a little wider, making at least the TT call correct.

      With a range that tight, you don't have to worry much about overcalls, but the blinds are getting better odds than the button, and the button is better off by folding because the button can hope that one of the blinds will call.
    • 1
    • 2