Is the Rake the problem?

    • nik1985
      nik1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.06.2006 Posts: 179
      Helle everybody,

      I have now played my first 31 k Hands and I am still constantly loosing money (-1,36 BB/100Hands). I started with the 50$ and went down, so that I am now playing the smallest limit 2cent Big blind on party poker. I have upswings but every downswing takes me a bit further down.
      I am searching for the reason for these losses. So I analysed how much I lost or won (in BB/Hand) with hands, that I would play according to the starting hands chart:

      AA: 3,15
      KK: 3,75
      QQ: 3,41
      AKs: 1,36
      AKo: 0,80
      JJ: 1,01
      TT: 1,18
      99: 0,21
      AQs: 0,69
      AQo: 0,64
      AJs:1,86
      AJo: -0,14
      KQs: 0,97
      KQo: -0,18
      88-22: 0,06
      KTs: -0,15
      QJs: 0,013
      JTs: 0,089
      T9s: 0,14
      KJo: -0,37
      KTo: 0,04
      QJo: 0,32
      QTo: -0,19
      JTo: -0,01

      A2s-A9s: 0,032
      K9s: -0,01
      98s: -0,25
      78s: -0,29


      Obviously I win with most of my playable hands and if I compare my win ratios to other players they are not that bad.

      So my assumption is that I am losing money because of the high rake on micro stakes.
      Can you read any other mistakes that I make out of these numbers?

      Do have another advice?

      I always try to learn and get better but my poker career seems like one big downswing :) lol
  • 17 replies
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      Hi there!

      I don't think the rake is important on these limits. I don't know which sites you play at, but very high rake is only on PartyPoker 2/4c 5/10c, but they're both beatable (experience tells me that). On Stars 10/20c FR is a bit nitty but there are just enough fishes to grind your way up.
      However 31k is a small sample size... not irrelevant, but small. As far as I can see those values are negative with usually the "bottom of my range" hands like KQo, KTs, AJo. If you're not sure playing them postflop, remember, folding is always 0EV. (I don't advise you not to play them, just maybe a bit more carefully.) Also with these hands you more often want to play wa/wb or make your opponent bluff you.
      I can also suggest you the articles/videos/coachings, and maybe joining the FL Skype Channel. If you're really feeling, that you're playing bad, not only running bad, match up with a slightly better player to do a sweat session to tell you that, but never ever loose your confidence and say I'm a loosing player. That's a sure bust in poker.

      Good luck!
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Originally posted by madorjan
      but never ever loose your confidence and say I'm a loosing player. That's a sure bust in poker.
      Hmmm, I agree with most of madorjan's post, barring this. I think it is important is to accept that your game needs work and improve. My game needs work. Everybody's game needs work.. well, possibly not Phil Ivey, but he sold his soul IMO.

      On the micros rake will hurt, however they should still be beatable. Perhaps a shift to a lower rake site will benefit you (I would guess PokerStars and iPoker sites will be okay for this.. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong).

      However, the biggest benefit will be studying as much as, if not more than, you play. Seriously, if you want to progress significantly you almost can't spend too much time studying. Articles, videos, hand eval forums, books. Also it is likely worth posting your stats in this thread in case they throw up any really obvious issues (31k hands will be enough to pick up the most obvious ones). For starters:

      VPIP:
      PFR:
      WTSD:
      W$SD:
      Fold BB to steal:
      Fold SB to steal:
      Aggression factor:

      Oh, and confirm whether you are playing FR or SH.

      Best of luck!
    • nik1985
      nik1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.06.2006 Posts: 179
      Hi Guys,

      thanks for your reply.
      I think I already mentioned that I'm playing party poker. Most on the limits with the high rakes :(

      I forgot to mention that I am playing FR.

      I only can give you a few numbers because my elephant lisence expired :)

      The numbers I can see are:

      VP$IP
      PFR
      PF Agression factor
      WTSD

      Do you want these numbers for each hand or overall?

      Here's overall:

      VP$IP 15%
      PFR 9%
      PF Agression factor 1
      WTSD 35%
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Hey nik1985

      From all hands is correct... we're looking for trends here!

      I assume that AF is 1.0? If so that's pretty passive... you'd be looking for at least 1.7 in most cases.

      Also your VPIP/PFR for FR should read something like 15/12 so it looks like you're not raising enough pre flop and cold calling/overlimping too many hands. You need to raise to maximise your pre flop equity advantage and to generate fold equity for later streets.

      It looks like you may be unsure why you're raising pre flop. If so, you need to make sure you stick to the charts and don't get caught up in the "well if I raise everyone's gonna call anyway" type mentality. You have an equity edge so raise!

      Hope this rings a bell... if not don't be afraid to ask more questions and I'm sure some of the dudes who actually know what they're doing will help out too!
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      Hi there!
      I'd like to add, that the nanolimits on PP has a tremendously high rake (10% OMG!!!), so if you can, move to Stars really. If not, play very tight (either stg like 15/12 or 12/10 is also good at these high rake tables), and somewhat aggressive (I had 2-2.5 AF, 40-45% AFq).
      I'm not some great high stakes or mid stakes pro or anything, but if you'd like to, we can have a sweat session or just some strategy talk sometimes. If you'd like to, add me on skype (nick: madorjan).

      Good luck!
    • nik1985
      nik1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.06.2006 Posts: 179
      Hi,
      I think you're right.

      I think the problem is that with the expired elephant lisence you only get rounded postflop agression factor. Because it's always 2 or 1. LOL.
      Do you know if there's another free software comparable to elephant?

      Anyways. The other numbers seem to be correct. Here are the numbers:

      BB/Hand//VP$IP//PFR//PF Agression factor//WTSD

      AA: 3,15//100/99//2/69
      KK: 3,75//100//99//2//65
      QQ: 3,41//97//93//2//62
      AKs: 1,36//100//91//2//41
      AKo: 0,80//100//92//2//44
      JJ: 1,01//100//92//1//58
      TT: 1,18//100//84//2//39
      99: 0,21//90//72//2//34
      AQs: 0,69//100//83//2//47
      AQo: 0,64//98//81//41
      AJs:1,86//100//85//2//49
      AJo: -0,14//96//74//2//40
      KQs: 0,97//93//80//2//45
      KQo: -0,18//67//57//2//34
      88-22: 0,06//35//15//3//25
      KTs: -0,15//13//19//1//24
      QJs: 0,013//38//26//2//37
      JTs: 0,089//26//22//1//28
      T9s: 0,14//13//9//1//37
      KJo: -0,37//34//14//1//32
      KTo: 0,04//17//7//1//38
      QJo: 0,32//34//14//1//32
      QTo: -0,19//17//6//1//31
      JTo: -0,01//20//7//2//24
      A2s-A9s: 0,032//25//15//1//35
      K9s: -0,01//12//5//2//40
      98s: -0,25//0//1//1//29
      78s: -0,29//43//4//1//12


      I was shocked about the 43% at 78s compared to 0% at 98s. I looked it up and I ALWAYS got 78s in the blinds! That's no joke :)
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      Hi!
      This stuff itself doesn't say a lot I think, because there are so many different preflop situations, also postflop situations. Stats aren't everything, but can be very missleading in micros. The main thing is you play a strong valuegame with as little bluffing as possible (except cbets, and some very rare occasions).
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Yep, forget about stats by hand (eg AA, AK, 72o) because the relative hand strength changes for each of these hands depending on your position, whether you're first in or acting after a limp/raise, playing from the blinds etc.

      As for other free software, both Poker Tracker 3 and Hold'em Manager offer free trials and I can definitely recommend trialling both of these pieces of software to get a good feel for what each one offers. Ofc, once you hit the 1k strategy points you get the Elephant for free which is a pretty competitive price.
    • Dawnfall26
      Dawnfall26
      Black
      Joined: 30.07.2008 Posts: 3,116
      Hi!

      I have reached midstakes and I must say that on my way I never payed much attention to stats or to possible stats analysis that you can do with various programs.

      About the numbers you provided, they are quite irrelavant since 31k hands is very little to get those mediocre hands(which have very small winrate) right.

      I also think that such aproach of improving is not the best so would suggest my way which I found very effective and motivating.
      Every day(if you play poker every day that is) I did a session(about 30 min long) playing 2-3 tables and really really focus on everything that can be observed during the session(my play,obtaining reads,...). After those 30 min I stopped,opened my holdem manager and went through the session again and analyse every hand!!(even the ones I was not involved by looking if I missed a read on someone) by using equilator,articles,ideas from vids,...When I was unsure about the hand I marked it and came back to the forums.
    • Tommino
      Tommino
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.01.2007 Posts: 169
      Dawnfall thanks for this inside on your routine in improving. I'm definitely going to try it as I've been losing motivation and passion to learn past 1-2 weeks. I think by creating this "stereotype" I will be able to motivate myself better in this hard times with doom switch on :)
    • Helipacter
      Helipacter
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.07.2010 Posts: 474
      Originally posted by nik1985
      Helle everybody,

      I have now played my first 31 k Hands and I am still constantly loosing money (-1,36 BB/100Hands). I started with the 50$ and went down, so that I am now playing the smallest limit 2cent Big blind on party poker. I have upswings but every downswing takes me a bit further down.
      I am searching for the reason for these losses. So I analysed how much I lost or won (in BB/Hand) with hands, that I would play according to the starting hands chart:

      AA: 3,15
      KK: 3,75
      QQ: 3,41
      AKs: 1,36
      AKo: 0,80
      JJ: 1,01
      TT: 1,18
      99: 0,21
      AQs: 0,69
      AQo: 0,64
      AJs:1,86
      AJo: -0,14
      KQs: 0,97
      KQo: -0,18
      88-22: 0,06
      KTs: -0,15
      QJs: 0,013
      JTs: 0,089
      T9s: 0,14
      KJo: -0,37
      KTo: 0,04
      QJo: 0,32
      QTo: -0,19
      JTo: -0,01

      A2s-A9s: 0,032
      K9s: -0,01
      98s: -0,25
      78s: -0,29


      Obviously I win with most of my playable hands and if I compare my win ratios to other players they are not that bad.

      So my assumption is that I am losing money because of the high rake on micro stakes.
      Can you read any other mistakes that I make out of these numbers?

      Do have another advice?

      I always try to learn and get better but my poker career seems like one big downswing :) lol
      The micros on PP are killing me too. I read the articles here and check the hand evaluations but it seems like the philosophy on the micros runs contrary to the stuff we're learning here. Try scaring someone off with AA, KK, or AKs and they catch a flush on the river.

      I moved up to $0.05/$0.10 because at $0.02/$0.04 I was getting nowhere, every session I finished around breakeven. On $0.05/$0.10 I'm actually doing better, around 5bb/100 - not exactly crushing the limit, but I am a newb :s_cool:

      . I want to get back to the $50 starting point, so I'm hoping that I can do this before the 90 days expires. If not then I'm off to another site for some Free Roll action...
    • adr0001
      adr0001
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      Originally posted by nik1985
      I have now played my first 31 k Hands and I am still constantly loosing money (-1,36 BB/100Hands). I started with the 50$ and went down, so that I am now playing the smallest limit 2cent Big blind on party poker.
      Party has 10% rake on nano limits which is HUGE.
      You are a -1,36BB/100 loser but I'm curious what the equivalent of the additional 5% rake is in BB/100.
      To be honest I don't think limit games with 10% rake are beatable no matter how bad the players are.
    • DYRD
      DYRD
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.11.2008 Posts: 15,939
      clear the bonus at 0.02/0.04, don't even think about 0.05 and run away to Pokerstars! Rake at 0.05 is as huge as at 0.02, but all tables are tight and way fewer than at 0.02/0.04 You earn more by playing 18 tables at 0.02 than at 4 at 0.05. FR at Party is dead! Learn how to play SH and u might come back, but before that don't...
    • DYRD
      DYRD
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.11.2008 Posts: 15,939
      I have beat 0.02 at Party when they had like 80% rakeback
    • gadget51
      gadget51
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.06.2008 Posts: 5,622
      Some good advice for you there. I'm lucky enought to play a small site that caps the rake for 2c/4c at 10c...and it's really fishy. :)

      Take the offer of the sweat session and I hope it goes well for you. Gl.
    • byxl
      byxl
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2009 Posts: 39
      I'm playing PartyPoker FLH 0.05/.1 and after some 2k hands I'm up about 70c - and very happy about it :D . Playing same game at Pokerstars with the same FL chart adn I'm up about 4$. If I was playing French version I can't imagine. Since I've deposited and waiting for bonus, I'll be happy to break even - and with 100$ + move up the limits. I basically play Partypoker just to get my Strategy points here. Again with the French version I'd be happy to break even...Also, seriously thinking about playing some freerolls just to try to get some extra on BR.
    • byxl
      byxl
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2009 Posts: 39
      Yesterday I checked bankroll management and saw that I can actually afford to play 0,1/0,2c FLH with my bankroll. I remembered a while after posting my previous reply here that when I begun learning the basic strategy I decided to start at lower limits than suggested, to get more comfortable. After I could play about 90+% hands preflop without checking the bronze charts, I realized I'm in my comfortable zone as far as these Micro limits are concerned, but completely forgot that I originally went down the limits. I checked the BR management article again and realized I can totally afford to play 0.1/0.2c at Party and 0.15/0.30c at PStars (which, unfortunately is not available there). Yesterday I had a pretty good winning session on Pstars and Party both SH and FR (FR on Party is playable on just one table at peak hours so I have to play SH which are full whole day long, while on Pstars I'm well over the limits compare to my bankroll so SH experiment there is affordable, or in other words I'll play it as a Step 2 in BRM) and on all four variations (SHx2 and FRx2) I won around 18-20bb/100h on an average. At Party my winning at FR are after some 250 hands at amazing 30+BB/100H (very small hand sample though).
      I don't honestly think that your game play is not profitable on a regular site, it's just that these ,05/,1c at Party are insane and very difficult to beat.

      Play NL SSS maybe until u get your bankroll at 50$ again, than play 0,1/0,2c which is profitable


      P.S. Why did I thought U play at PartyPoker.fr is beyond me... sorry about that...