All in KK preflop. To be or not to be?

    • Gabinr1
      Gabinr1
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      Joined: 05.04.2009 Posts: 7,755
      From the beginning I thought that always going all in preflop for 100BB was a bad idea. You most of the time see AA. [I'm talking about FR only here, don't know about SH]

      I did think that it was a bad idea, but did it anyway because it's recommended by everybody. Well, now I have proof (at least for me) that the statement "always go all in preflop with KK for 100BB" is wrong.

      Here is a graph, where I filtered to show only KK and only when I was all in preflop: (total sample size more than 500K hands)




      I'm curios to see if it's only my case or more of you have the same results. Post graphs.


      Cheers and Good Luck! :heart:
  • 31 replies
    • harleytopper
      harleytopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.09.2007 Posts: 680
      I play mainly NL SH .10 - .25.

      On lower limits against nits you won't see something else preflop (100BB pots) than KK+ (QQ rarely).

      I guess from NL50 game gets more agressive, so it is more profitable (at least break even) to push KK.
    • drdrab
      drdrab
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      Joined: 11.06.2009 Posts: 37
      Well the problem with KK preflop is not that AA will bust it but that the possibility of Ax busting it as well as some suckouts, so there are a lot of combinations which will beat it.

      100BB is not called for, if I get reraised, so long as it's just me and villain in the pot I see no need for an all in because likelihood is he has strong holdings. If no ace comes on the flop then you push, if you get caught out by AA then so be it but at the stage most Ax will fold or foolishly call giving you the pot about 9/10 times.

      It is frustrating though when you sit for ages, KK comes along and it gets busted, but a raise/call strategy is good preflop i think because chances are you're ahead.

      Your reads on opponents are pretty vital in these situations too. Obviously a tight player is going to raise more alarms so you play cautiously etc and against the looser players getting it all in pre-flop is less of a risk.
    • ZeMammuth
      ZeMammuth
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      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 704
      Going all in with KK preflop is deff + EV, it's only not when you do it against complete nits, so really it's down to your observation skills. If someone has 5 vpip and he shows major resistance there is a good possibility that he has aces...However queens, kings and ak will prob be played the same way...So it's like 3 v 1 so 2 out of 3 times you should win really, but since any ace has 30 percent equity we can say kings should win in the long run around 60 percent of the time when you have major resistance.

      What stakes do you play? Because that graph is indeed weird. I also noticed on pokerstars that my kings always used to get sucked out over a large sample size, are you playing on pokerstars also? lol I used to lose with kings more than I won for some reason funny enough.


      I lost 3 times in late stages of sunday million with kk v a-3, jt - and the worse one 5-3 which got me smashing things.
    • Putka66
      Putka66
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      Joined: 27.11.2009 Posts: 16
      Well i play SH play this week FR only at rush tables. And so far when i went preflop AI with KK there was 7 times against AA 2 times against AK and once against KK and QQ so obviously on average i was underdog :(
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Reminded me of BBV classics:

    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      And fwiw, if that's rush FR then folding KK pf seems quite standard.
    • Gabinr1
      Gabinr1
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      Joined: 05.04.2009 Posts: 7,755
      • 17.07.2010, 11:07
      • This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Gabinr1: 17.07.2010 11:09.
      Going all in with KK preflop is deff + EV,
      My graph says otherwise.

      And about bad beats, that's why I posted the AI EV... even if I would have had the green line with the red (of EV) I would still be -12BI, that's a lot.


      Don't try to explain "why and how" to much. Post your graph, then make some comments.


      PS: Post graphs. The winnings line doesn't lie :)
    • mishkagg
      mishkagg
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      Joined: 29.07.2008 Posts: 1,354
      Yeah, I've to agree with the OP. I am playing NL25 Rush and I am pushing KK to the limits and most of the time I am up vs AA. Rarely will I see QQ/AK. Sometimes even JJ in a blind battle. And there are some retards like yesterday I raised KK from CO, BU folds, SB pushes AI for 60 bb stack, the BB overpushes for 65 bb stack and I called. Was up vs AQs SB and JJ BB. So I guess it should be +ev on my limit.
      Have to see graphs of KK but my sample is low, like 40k.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      My little contribution to the thread:
    • wowadvisor
      wowadvisor
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      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 741
      can anybody tell me how to filter all in with KK preflop? im really curious to see because i know for a fact im losing money on this as well..

      when i created a thread explaining this i got flamed that im a bad player and going all in with KK preflop is ALWAYS +ev no matter what etc

      what filter do i turn on in HEM?
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      • 17.07.2010, 11:58
      • This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by NightFrostaSS: 17.07.2010 11:59.
      Originally posted by wowadvisor
      can anybody tell me how to filter all in with KK preflop? im really curious to see because i know for a fact im losing money on this as well..

      when i created a thread explaining this i got flamed that im a bad player and going all in with KK preflop is ALWAYS +ev no matter what etc

      what filter do i turn on in HEM?
      Filter>Edit>>Hole cards(HE) - click "deselect all cards" and select KK only then go to >> "More filters" find a preflop filter "All in preflop = true" select it and click "add this filter", click "save and close" and you should have ur graph
    • Tampaloeres81
      Tampaloeres81
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      Joined: 08.03.2009 Posts: 1,416
      Here is mine:


      Uploaded with ImageShack.us

      Are you're own PFR 3bet 4bet stats tight? That could be a reason why vilains folds most hands but AA vs you.

      T.
    • roswellx
      roswellx
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      Joined: 05.12.2008 Posts: 599
      135 hands are nothing. Total 500k means nothing in this situation. get 30k - 50k, KK hands preflop then we'll see ;)
    • ZeMammuth
      ZeMammuth
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      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 704
      The facts don't lie, in rush poker at your limit going all in preflop = -EV, however you should find out at the different limits. Because each limit is diff of course
    • strosdegoz
      strosdegoz
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.11.2007 Posts: 184
      I have 200,000k hands from which 1,000 are KK and only 170 or so All in pre flop, here is the graph.

      This is mostly nl10 plus some nl25 and a few nl2.

    • wowadvisor
      wowadvisor
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      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 741
      • 17.07.2010, 18:42
      • This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by wowadvisor: 17.07.2010 18:44.
      fulltilt


      Uploaded with ImageShack.us


      pokerstars


      Uploaded with ImageShack.us


      ........... not 4betting it again.. i will call it from now on

      by the way.. how do you post images that are not stretching out the forum like my images??
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Originally posted by wowadvisor
      ........... not 4betting it again.. i will call it from now on
      or just learn to identify players/situations where it's profitable to get it in preflop. Like for example BvB you'll def show more profit getting in pf w KK than if you were to get it in against TAGgy UTG opener etc.

      by the way.. how do you post images that are not stretching out the forum like my images??
      there is option to resize image when uploading to imageshack
    • Bierbaer
      Bierbaer
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2005 Posts: 7,989
      Originally posted by Gabinr1
      From the beginning I thought that always going all in preflop for 100BB was a bad idea. You most of the time see AA. [I'm talking about FR only here, don't know about SH]

      I did think that it was a bad idea, but did it anyway because it's recommended by everybody. Well, now I have proof (at least for me) that the statement "always go all in preflop with KK for 100BB" is wrong.

      Here is a graph, where I filtered to show only KK and only when I was all in preflop: (total sample size more than 500K hands)

      I'm curios to see if it's only my case or more of you have the same results. Post graphs.


      Cheers and Good Luck! :heart:
      You have to add the non-SD-winnings of the hands in which you 4bet and the opponent folded and the hands in which you shoved over a 4bet and the opponent folded.
    • Anssi
      Anssi
      Black
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 2,173
      Originally posted by Bierbaer
      You have to add the non-SD-winnings of the hands in which you 4bet and the opponent folded and the hands in which you shoved over a 4bet and the opponent folded.
      I was just about to say the same thing. I'm pretty sure suddenly your KK is hugely profitable.
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