Are you going bust with QQ and KK

    • Greedyfly
      Greedyfly
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      Joined: 26.04.2010 Posts: 213
      I only ask as the last four days I think I have lost 8/10 shoves. If I have QQ villain has KK. If I have KK v has AA...Its sending my bankroll south quick and is a source of frustration for me.

      So how does one profitable play QQ and KK?
  • 19 replies
    • conall88
      conall88
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      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      I had similar problems thinking I overplayed AK for a while now. Ive been doing this after some experimentation and it seems to be working:

      KK is normally a no brainer. Just make sure to open for 3.5x pre imo when playing the micros.

      QQ on the other hand, I prefer to determine whether it will be profitable to play it aggressively based on:

      -Villain's 3bet range ( over 35 or more hands at least)
      -board texture post flop
      - any unusual actions villain takes


      - pokerstove => Download here

      use pokerstove to get a rough idea what a 3bet range of 4%, 7%, and 13% is for example. These seem to be quite common and give you a nice idea what sort of range people are 3betting with.

      This opens up:

      -easier times deciding when to steal
      - makes it easier to decide whether 4betting is profitable
      - helps you notice the players on the table who are way out of line.

      example: 3bet/call range of <2% I normally fold KK to a 4bet preflop unless I have a read. ( need a decent sample size for this!)

      if range ~ 4-5% I will try to get value with KK by 5 betting all in or just playing aggressively depending on villain type.

      if range >10% you know this guy is adding a lot of bluffs to his range including things like KQ, so you can decide for yourself what line you want to take.

      hope that helps :)
    • Albeback
      Albeback
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      Joined: 02.03.2009 Posts: 250
      What limits do you play?
      I think it is more important than other stats actually.
      I would only rarely fold QQ preflop and only if it is a multiway AI and pretty much never KK (only if I time out basically). I would need a very strong read to fold them which I usually do not have.
      Well in the last few days I actually lost over 50% of my preflop AI with AA but I do not have second thoughts about it and I think you should not have either.
      10 hands is just an irrelevant sample imo.
    • Wurble
      Wurble
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      Joined: 04.04.2009 Posts: 456
      Dude, unless you know for sure that villain's shoving range is QQ+ then you have to get it all in pre with the ladies.

      At the micro's you will be called by sooooo many worse hands that folding would be a huge leak.

      As I mentioned to you in an email, I'm about $15 below ev at the moment and pretty much all of that was all in pre flop with AA (2 x 250bb stack, once against 65s who hit two pair and once AK who flopped a straight). The other $5 were 100bb stacks where I stuck it in on the flop, got called by worse and got rivered.

      Downswings and bad beats will happen over and over again but if you start folding monsters pre flop when you have a massive edge against the micro donks then you're gonna miss so much value it won't even be worth playing anymore.

      edit: wanted to add... as has already been said - KK is a no brainer preflop.

      Also, if you're losing money post flop you need to be wary obviously when an overcard hits the board - Fishies love their A-rag hands and suited kings so it's best not to go broke facing aggression in a big pot from little fishy who has flat called your 3 or 4 bet pre.
    • conall88
      conall88
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      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      I agree with wurble. Player profiling is what you need to consider post flop. find out who overcalls draws, find out who slowplayers sets etc.

      Predict villain's ranges. Play approperiately.

      If they deviate, make notes or adapt.

      etc
    • alenstrat
      alenstrat
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      Joined: 13.03.2009 Posts: 821
      I had a similar experience, since moving to NL5. Against full stacked players I've come to the conclusion you can only go all in with AA unless you've got a read villain is a fish or loose. So now I rarely go preflop allin with even KK. And QQ I think is an automatic fold if your 3 bet or 4 bet gets shoved, at least 90 or 95% of the time you'll be facing KK or AA.

      Against shortstacks I still am much looser, I'll go all in with QQ+ and AK as a rule, unless I've got a read villain is a SSS pushing a tight range. Too many shortstacks pushing any trash allin to give up QQ IMO. Actually many times I go allin with JJ too against some shortstacks. So many times they'll only have one overcard at best (A7, K10 and trash like that), that a high-mid pair like JJ is still a 70/30 flip.

      In rush NL5 I came to an even clearer conclusion on this, since so many more hands go allin. Examining my pockertracker stats, I'm only making a lot on AA (whereas in normal poker AA and KK both have huge profit), and then all other pockets INCLUDING KK had around the same small profit, mostly due to hitting sets. And this is due to the huge amount of stacks I've lost with KK vs. AA. So the past week I tightened up with KK, either controlling the pots or turning pockertracker on to get an idea of how loose villain is, result : no stacks lost on KK vs. AA the past week.

      I'm sure a lot of people will jump up and say "no way" KK is obviously an allin hand!! But I'm just playing with my experience. 10 stacks lost on KK vs. AA on 30K rush hands was enough to convince me to not lose any more.
    • strosdegoz
      strosdegoz
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      Joined: 24.11.2007 Posts: 184
      Get a read on your opponent, if villain have been playing a lot then just shove all in, if villain is tight then call and play post flop.

      My friend plays all day long NL2 and people call with about every possible hand there is so only considering foling KK or QQ preflop is a big mistake, if you go to the higher stakes then you should really think twice before shoving everything will depend on your opponent.
    • qakaripodon
      qakaripodon
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      Joined: 07.10.2009 Posts: 31
      any hand in poker is played based on opponents tendencies and ranges.. sometimes against a villain with 15% PFR u can 3b AJ profitable if he 4bets you should look at his 4bet range and game flow or history u had with him.
      if u dont have stats then take notes.. but remember dont be result oriented or short term based person. poker is a game of variance sometimes good one sometimes bad one but it shouldnt affect u at all.. try to make the best decision thats it.
    • Fongie
      Fongie
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      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 4,978
      Anyone telling you to always go all in with QQ is wrong. Anyone telling you to always go all in with AK is wrong. Anyone telling you to always go all in with KK is wrong, too, although he probably gets away from it cheaper ;)

      There are no "always" situations in poker. I could tell you that in my games I will be shipping QQ and AK for 100bb pretty much always, but if you took that and made it a rule you would be making mistakes.

      In short, I think that in FR games vs UTG raisers you are very often going to be well off flatting QQ and AK. Against some extremely tight players you might even flat KK (check this).

      But that doesn't mean this is a rule either. You just need to be focusing on the player you are playing against and adapt. There will be situations where you should 3b TT for value in FR against a UTG raiser, and where you should flat QQ on the BU vs a UTG raiser in 6max. The important part is learning why you are 3betting. If you know this, you will know who you should 3bet (and 4bet, and shove) and when.
    • conall88
      conall88
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      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      fongie just described in a nut shell what I was trying to explain :]

      edit: lol make mes me feel linguistically inadequate haha

      me speaky english very grooood lol.
    • Wurble
      Wurble
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      Joined: 04.04.2009 Posts: 456
      Originally posted by Fongie
      Anyone telling you to always go all in with QQ is wrong. Anyone telling you to always go all in with AK is wrong. Anyone telling you to always go all in with KK is wrong, too, although he probably gets away from it cheaper ;)

      There are no "always" situations in poker. I could tell you that in my games I will be shipping QQ and AK for 100bb pretty much always, but if you took that and made it a rule you would be making mistakes.

      In short, I think that in FR games vs UTG raisers you are very often going to be well off flatting QQ and AK. Against some extremely tight players you might even flat KK (check this).

      But that doesn't mean this is a rule either. You just need to be focusing on the player you are playing against and adapt. There will be situations where you should 3b TT for value in FR against a UTG raiser, and where you should flat QQ on the BU vs a UTG raiser in 6max. The important part is learning why you are 3betting. If you know this, you will know who you should 3bet (and 4bet, and shove) and when.
      This is obviously spot on but as a generalisation, at nl2\nl5 with no previous reads on any given villain would you advocate sticking it in with QQ+ & AK?

      To me this is a standard play with no meaningful stats on a villain but you're the coach and I would like to know if this is a huge leak?

      Would like to add though, that over more than 100k hands I'm showing profit with the big 4 but if I could make more by doing something different that would be nice lol
    • conall88
      conall88
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      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715

      if I could make more by doing something different that would be nice lol
      selective loose steals sounds like what you want. I'm not in a position to teach it however.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      I'm only going robusto w these hands
    • Fongie
      Fongie
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      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 4,978
      Originally posted by Wurble

      This is obviously spot on but as a generalisation, at nl2\nl5 with no previous reads on any given villain would you advocate sticking it in with QQ+ & AK?
      Obviously answering this would make my former point that it cannot be answered kinda stupid :f_biggrin:
      Honestly I don't have a massive sample on anything below NL10 ;) so you would have to answer this for me.. does the average nl2/5 player go broke with worse, 4b/fold, or call with worse preflop often enough for you to ship it profitably?
      If the answer is yes (I suspect it is) then you should.


      Would like to add though, that over more than 100k hands I'm showing profit with the big 4 but if I could make more by doing something different that would be nice lol
      Well duh why change a winning concept :f_p: You're probably doing fine
    • stevegold87
      stevegold87
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      Joined: 18.06.2009 Posts: 2,640
      Very nice read, I am often having problems with Queens and AK since they run into KK and AK
    • LarryHagman
      LarryHagman
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      Joined: 24.02.2007 Posts: 33
      I went AA v AA the other day only to lose.

      All I could do was laugh.

      venfan posts a blind of $.05.
      James_ID posts a blind of $.10.

      (James_ID is dealt As Ac.)

      Pre-flop:
      lxlfabianlxl folds.
      staschirva calls for $.10.
      hamster21 folds.
      emotion7 folds.
      venfan raises $.10.
      James_ID raises $.10.
      staschirva calls for $.20.
      venfan raises $.90.
      James_ID raises $2.70.
      staschirva folds.
      venfan goes all-in for $9.20.
      James_ID goes all-in for $26.33.
      $19.83 is pushed back to James_ID.

      Showdown:

      venfan shows: Ad Ah

      James_ID shows: As Ac

      The flop comes
      Qd 3d 8c.
      The turn comes 6d.
      The river comes 2d.

      James_ID shows: As Ac
      As Ac Qd 8c 6d
      A pair of Aces

      venfan shows: Ad Ah
      Ad Qd 6d 3d 2d
      Flush, Ace high

      venfan wins pot ($19.70).
    • ihufa
      ihufa
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      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 3,323
      i prefer KQ, but you can call and see a cheap flop with QQ and KK
    • fryandspicy
      fryandspicy
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      Joined: 27.05.2010 Posts: 440
      Fongie said:
      The important part is learning why you are 3betting. If you know this, you will know who you should 3bet (and 4bet, and shove) and when.


      ... Can someone explain why we 3bet please? :f_grin:

      I read somewhere that with AK we 3bet because we can safely fold to a push whereas we're probably ahead if they call. With AA i imagine we 3bet for value.

      Should i therefore 3bet only if i think they'll either call/jam with a worse range or jam with a better range? And i know which one of these two things they'll do?

      ... :f_confused:

      to clarify:
      EG1:
      I hold QQ on BU, against a nit UTG. He raises, i 3bet, he jams. I'm happy and fold because i 3bet knowing if he jammed i was beat which was why i did it in the first place

      EG2:
      I hold QQ on BU, against a spastic UTG. He raises, i 3bet, he jams. I'm happy and call because i 3bet knowing if he jammed i'd have most of his range crushed which is why i did it in the first place.


      ... right???

      So then we don't 3bet when...?
    • Wurble
      Wurble
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.04.2009 Posts: 456
      Originally posted by fryandspicy
      Fongie said:
      The important part is learning why you are 3betting. If you know this, you will know who you should 3bet (and 4bet, and shove) and when.


      ... Can someone explain why we 3bet please? :f_grin:

      I read somewhere that with AK we 3bet because we can safely fold to a push whereas we're probably ahead if they call. With AA i imagine we 3bet for value.

      Should i therefore 3bet only if i think they'll either call/jam with a worse range or jam with a better range? And i know which one of these two things they'll do?

      ... :f_confused:

      to clarify:
      EG1:
      I hold QQ on BU, against a nit UTG. He raises, i 3bet, he jams. I'm happy and fold because i 3bet knowing if he jammed i was beat which was why i did it in the first place

      EG2:
      I hold QQ on BU, against a spastic UTG. He raises, i 3bet, he jams. I'm happy and call because i 3bet knowing if he jammed i'd have most of his range crushed which is why i did it in the first place.


      ... right???

      So then we don't 3bet when...?
      It depends on the situation - You either bet as a bluff or for value. I would say that even with AK you are betting for value because clearly, a better hand is definitely not going to fold!

      You need to think about the situation yourself at the time based on reads - You have a hand (any hand)... what do you want to do with it? Get a weaker hand to call (betting for value) or a better hand to fold (bluffing)?
    • yeahyoung0312
      yeahyoung0312
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      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      I think the current situation, in most poker rooms at levels as high as NL600, is that so many players are adapting this rule of "QQ AK preflop AI = no brainer in 100BB games" , that it would be a big mistake if one player does not follow this rule when everyone else does. One just can not 3b or 4b and fold AK/QQ to another possible AK/QQ pushing AI.

      Of course in higher stakes or deep stack games it is a different story. But in certain limits following this AK/QQ AI rule is adaptive.