Raise with player out - Help on analyzing an hand (for which I was kind of insulted)

    • alapalaya
      alapalaya
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.06.2010 Posts: 8
      Dear strategists,

      I've got a question for you on a recent SnG I've participated. (sorry for the long post)

      Details (kind of exact, minor details may be wrong):
      Blinds: 50/100
      Average stack: 2.000
      Middle phase of tournament, I'm leading with 3.500, two guys are following in the 3.000 - 3.500 range
      Generally tight table, with two very loose aggressive guys
      I'm in late-middle position, in early position a player is with less than 3 BB (generally tight).

      Pre-flop:
      My cards: JJ
      Short guy goes all-in (I assume he has a mid-high pair or AK, AQ, possibly AJ)
      A loose guy before me (let's call him A) calls (he has a stack very close to mine), I call (here I don't remember if I did a raise 4BB pre-flop, I think not); no one else calls

      Flop:
      Community cards: J76 (rainbow)
      All-in guys of course has no action
      A calls
      I raise half a pot

      Now, the hand will go on and I'll win the pot JJJ vs. double pair of Ax, all-in guy had AQ (I think). During turn and river I rasied once more.

      My question:
      Any comment on my hand is welcome but especially I need your opinion on a comment I received from A and a girl (they are friends) in the chat

      They started a discussion on my raise like:
      "The donk is raising! Never raise with a player out"
      "Leave it, they are clearly (random insult here)!"
      "Yes, they do not understand, he's a (another insult here)"
      "(additional insults and comments for a while)"

      Now, aside the language (that was worth a mention to the client service); I'm not sure about the "never raise with a player out"
      My line of thought was:

      "I'm strong, likely best on the table; with all-in I will play my hand as it is; but I can play like in an heads-up with A, so I will raise trying to push him out or gather value from the hand"

      I was considering the side-pot as a kind of heads up, so I played exactly what I was going to do with that guy.

      Strategists, what do you think of my hand? Was ok to raise or really a donk move? (and why?)


      (by the way, I won the SnG, but thanks later to a super lucky hand: at turn I had TTT vs straight, a T come in at river)


      Thanks a lot my friends

      Alaplaya
  • 10 replies
    • lennonac
      lennonac
      Global
      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 1,421
      What type of Sng was it?
    • alapalaya
      alapalaya
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.06.2010 Posts: 8
      Originally posted by lennonac
      What type of Sng was it?
      Thanks for the reply.
      I'm not sure 100% about the question; it was a SnG with 10 players, 3 winning, very small buy-in (1 Eur)

      Poker room was partypoker

      Is this what you were asking?


      Thanks

      Alapalaya
    • lennonac
      lennonac
      Global
      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 1,421
      yes thats what I was asking :)

      Ignor them, you did the right thing
    • alapalaya
      alapalaya
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.06.2010 Posts: 8
      Originally posted by lennonac
      yes thats what I was asking :)

      Ignor them, you did the right thing
      Thanks Lennonac, it is very comforting to hear that. :)

      In your (experienced) opinion, what do you think the 2 guys had in mind?
      I could imagine that in a MTT things should change a bit, or if we are in the bubble; but nevertheless, I think I would replay the same hand in the same way, but probably I need to learn something here.

      (sorry for the newbie questions, I've started reading about and playing hold'em less than 2 months ago, far less than 100 SnG, so I'm actually really very very new to this world)

      Thanks again!
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      There are situations where you should just check the hand down to maximise the chances of eliminating the player who is all in. It's called 'implicit collusion', because you're cooperating with the other player, but without discussing it. The hand you describe was not like this. You were, quite rightly, value betting your strong hand.
    • lennonac
      lennonac
      Global
      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 1,421
      The only time it is frowned upon betting into a dry side pot (when 1 player is all in and there is no extra money to be won by the other two players that are not all in) is when you have nothing and likely to lose at showdown to the guy that is allin.

      This is because the two non allin players have a better chance of knocking out the allin player together. This will increase both of your equity in the sng.
      But when you are sure you have the best hand there is no reason for you not to try and get some more chips from the other player.

      If it was a double or nothing on the bubble then it would be a really bad play to bet into it.

      I hope that makes sense to you, not sure i worded it very well :D
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      Yes, bluffing into an empty pot is a cardinal sin!
    • alapalaya
      alapalaya
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.06.2010 Posts: 8
      Great!
      Thanks for the lesson, very helpful! (I think I'll study a bit on the "Implicit collusion" concept)

      Every day I spend in PS.com I learn something

      Thanks guys!

      PS: if I meet the 2 guys again I'll point them directly to this thread and brag a bit :)
    • Wurble
      Wurble
      Silver
      Joined: 04.04.2009 Posts: 456
      Originally posted by alapalaya
      Great!
      Thanks for the lesson, very helpful! (I think I'll study a bit on the "Implicit collusion" concept)

      Every day I spend in PS.com I learn something

      Thanks guys!

      PS: if I meet the 2 guys again I'll point them directly to this thread and brag a bit :)
      lol don't point them here - You want to play against people who make mistakes as often as possible. If they come here they will make less mistakes and that means you'll make less money!!
    • alapalaya
      alapalaya
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.06.2010 Posts: 8

      lol don't point them here - You want to play against people who make mistakes as often as possible. If they come here they will make less mistakes and that means you'll make less money!!

      So right! I'll keep the PS.com advantage for myself (and the PS.com community) :) :)