Calling 4bets

    • kosmonaut111
      kosmonaut111
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2009 Posts: 715
      Recently I´ve encountered that regulars sometimes call 4bets IP and also OOP. They have done it with JJ, 88 (dont remember other hands). Sometimes call 4bet and fold on flop. Is it reasonable to call 4bets ? and with what hands do you think it is advisable ?
  • 7 replies
    • jekyll001
      jekyll001
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.04.2010 Posts: 188
      You should never call 4-bets if you are not deeper than 200BB. If you see his 4-bet % tight enough (say 2-3%), you should always fold AK, QQ, JJ (does not make sense to call for set value or for high card with AK).

      Calling with AA on the other hand means that you miss potential value preflop (e.g. if you call speculatively with AA and A hits on board, you miss huge value against other premium pairs) and you can also get busted if you only call and opponent hits his sets etc. With KK it is similar mostly (though I saw some players with 1% 4-bet range over thousands of hands, which means he only pushes AA and there you can even fold KK pre or on the flop if you don´t convince yourself to fold it pre ;) ).

      Basically never call 4-bets. It is too speculative and less EV in longterm.

      ***
      It makes sense to call 3 (!!) bet IP with AK,QQ,JJ. Out of position I fold call AK and call QQ, JJ for set value if he has tight 3-bet range.. Of course if his 3-bet range is loose, you can push him with AK,QQ,JJ by 4-betting.

      (This my experience is based on about 250k hands FR NL100 - NL200. I am about 4BB/100 profitable player. Not too good, as I am still developing, but I think the above is good guidance for FR :s_cool: I don´t play SH).
    • OZSA
      OZSA
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.05.2009 Posts: 804
      yeah definitely, calling 4bets you can only do against those who do light 4bets preflop, but they fold to shoves (talking about deep tables, with 100bb 4bet and fold is ultra rare, except lets say BU vs SB very aggro ppl). even if u know they light 4bet, I dont think you can call QQ or KK, against a loose fish, QQ and KK is min5bet or shove whatever u like, but calling sux if an overcard shows up. AA for trapping is ok, hitting ur 2 outer is a bit hard. but against regs or "nonfishes" you cant call 4bet with almost nothing, if u got AA, in best cases he gonna have KK QQ and rarely AK..so he gonna call ur shove...btw jeky, @ FR games if u 3bet a 14/10 reg with QQ and he 4bets, u fold or shove? same with KK, if he has 1% 3bet range, u fold it or 4bet shove?
    • Bierbaer
      Bierbaer
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2005 Posts: 7,989
      Originally posted by kosmonaut111
      Is it reasonable to call 4bets ?
      No.

      At least not for 100BB.
      a) You can't balance this range.
      b) The opponent is either commited with worse hands so he calls a shove anyway or he planned on 4bet/folding in which case he c/folds on the flop anyway - but he gets three (!) freecards and additionally he gets a chance to bluff you off your hand.
    • OZSA
      OZSA
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.05.2009 Posts: 804
      the only spots where calling 4bets are very profitable imo, is when you got a pocket pair and u 3bet preflop say 9bb, and u get 4bet to smt like 18bb (if ur deep its a must call) coz small 4bets are usually aces (standard player, not a maniac) and if u hit u got his stack, especially in rush I see shitloads of ppl min3bet JJ+ and go all day allin on any flop that has no overs..
    • DecMate
      DecMate
      Gold
      Joined: 25.01.2009 Posts: 1,095
      Originally posted by OZSA
      the only spots where calling 4bets are very profitable imo, is when you got a pocket pair and u 3bet preflop say 9bb, and u get 4bet to smt like 18bb (if ur deep its a must call) coz small 4bets are usually aces (standard player, not a maniac) and if u hit u got his stack, especially in rush I see shitloads of ppl min3bet JJ+ and go all day allin on any flop that has no overs..
      you can't profitable set mine in 4B pots 100bb deep.
    • Jan217
      Jan217
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 626
      if its a 4bet from 9bb to 18 bb and you are sure he goes broke with overpair (and you are very sure he has a high pair), then its a 9bb call to win 36bb + 72bb (his remaining stack) = 108bb . you hit your set on the flop 1 in 8.5 times, so you need to be winning at least 8.5 times your investment when you hit. 8.5x9bb = 76.5bb so its actually a prety profitable call imo but only vs a player who cant lay down an overpair. Ive actually been wondering about this situation for a little while, is my logic right here? ofc vs someone who can be 4bet bluffing its a fold since you dont have the implieds or a 5bet bluff if you are feeling it.... ^^
    • OZSA
      OZSA
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.05.2009 Posts: 804
      I tell u for sure, if u 3bet and u get min4bet its aces, so he gonna go allin no matter what flop he sees, u will instantly realize that, when he pots the flop and shoves the turn, so setmine is profitable but only if the 4bet is very small or its a min4bet.. btw i said about deep, and that starts from 200bb++, not 100bb.