[NL2-NL10] Nl2 99

    • stevegold87
      stevegold87
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2009 Posts: 2,640
      Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

      BB ($1.26)
      UTG ($3.12)
      UTG+1 ($1.01)
      MP1 ($2.02)
      MP2 ($1.98)
      Hero (CO) ($2.10)
      Button ($1.96)
      SB ($1.01)

      Preflop: Hero is CO with 9, 9
      4 folds, MP2 bets $0.07, Hero calls $0.07, 2 folds

      Flop: ($0.17) 4, 2, 3 (2 players)
      MP2 bets $0.17, Hero calls $0.17

      Turn: ($0.51) 6 (2 players)
      MP2 bets $0.40, Hero ?

      Villain is 18/11
  • 8 replies
    • Oly0909
      Oly0909
      Silver
      Joined: 08.06.2008 Posts: 843
      I hate these kind of hands. I don't know where I'm at, and he's poting on flop. I think you're usualy behind in this situation, but the only way to find out is to raise him on flop. If he 3bets you he is probably on higher pocketpair and in many cases he will fold. Worst thing is if he calls you. You still don't know where you're at, but at least, he'll check the turn for sure so you'll see river for free and then reevaluate.
    • stevegold87
      stevegold87
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2009 Posts: 2,640
      You are correcct, a raise on the flop would of told me some informations about his hands. I will remember that
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      Hi,


      Raising knowing that only better hands will stick around and all worse hands will fold is a very bad idea the overwhelming majority of the time. Just because you feel uncomfortable playing the turn and might make a mistake doesn't mean you should start making a more expensive mistake earlier to prevent that.

      Villain doesn't look too loose, he raised preflop from MP2 then proceeded to pot a 432 2t flop and bet 3/4 again on a 6o turn with a possible one-card straight on board. You only beat complete 2 barrel bluffs from a seemingly tight guy, 77-88 (which is nothing compared to the amount of 22-66/TT+ combos he will play the same way) and stuff like big diamonds broadways (not many combos of those either relatively speaking). There is nothing wrong with folding 99 there without further reads and you don't need to spew away a 3x raise to believe in that, it's just not a profitable calldown.


      Hope it helps.
    • Oly0909
      Oly0909
      Silver
      Joined: 08.06.2008 Posts: 843
      Hi,

      First. I'm just a beginner playing on NL4 on Cake. Lots of players here are beting just their value hands, so I would call a flop bet, and fold on 2nd barrel. My first question is if this is correct, or I should fold even on flop?

      Second. While I played NL2 on Tilt I saw many, many, many times players even 3-barreling these kind of flops with hands like AK/AQ, thats why I thought it would be OK to show aggression first while the pot is small, and then to fold if he continuous to be aggressive himself.

      Third. I said I hate these kind of hands, I don't really know how to play them, so thats my second question. What to do do in this spot with TT or JJ? Same as with 99? Or it depends of something?

      Hope you'll help again :f_p:
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      Hi,


      #1

      Even if they're indeed just betting their value hands you probably still have to call the flop, since you beat some of the value hands that people would consider worth betting, like worse overpairs. Together with that is the idea that most people nowadays have gotten around making a continuation bet, so on average people who really are betting only value hands are quite sparse.

      The general consensus is that while it's very likely for people to be bluff c-betting these days, there is somewhat of a big gap between a flop c-bet and a turn c-bet due to people not getting over the "fire one bluff just in case and be done" mentality. So when people actually fire both flop and turn, it's a lot less likely they're bluffing unless they're just not thinking players, button mashing monkeys don't follow any rules :p

      #2

      If you really saw people bluff all the way with stuff like AK/AQ, why would you make a play on the flop that would cause them to fold their bluffs and only continue with hands that crush you? It's all about playing ranges.

      If they're 3-barreling AK/AQ, that's 2*16=32 combos of hands right there. With each high pair behind 6 combos, this almost makes up for him having TT+ cold if you call him down when he's 3-barreling all those hands. Since you'll also have dead money in the pot, it might even be the best play to call down against that range, even if in the hand he'll show you an overpair half the time. (Of course this is oversimplified: even with 99 against AK we'll still lose by the river a quarter of the time to his overcards and he could very well have a low set or something.)

      Just imagine what happens if you raise his range of AK/AQ/TT+ on the flop: he folds AQ/AK, and he shoves TT+ on you. So not only did you lose the size of your raise, you lost the chance of catching him bluffing. So of course it might look like you saved money against better hands that way and in a sense you're right. But this leads to flawed thinking for way too many poker players especially when they're starting out, so I believe you should mostly concern yourself with getting value out of worse hands instead of trying to avoid getting stacked by better hands.

      Once you get good at valuebetting other players, you'll be better at recognizing when someone is trying to valuebet you. I'm not saying you should get stacked when it's obvious and stuff, just try and think first about whether there is any value for you in the hand. If there is, take the line where worse hands can keep giving money to you. If there isn't, don't push yourself and don't feel bad folding either, some battles just aren't worth fighting.

      #3

      Switching to those hands we're just moving the line a bit. When we have TT people can bet there with 99 more often, and we're no longer beat by as many TT hands. When we have JJ instead, people can bet there 99-TT more often, and we're not longer beat by as many TT-JJ hands. Since there are less hands that beat us and more hands that we beat, we need villains to be bluffing less often to profitably call down.

      Nothing is set in stone. Against some players that I view as very nitty I would dump TT-JJ just as easily as I would 99. Against maniacs I'm not folding 99 to begin with so I'm certainly not folding TT-JJ. Against people in the middle who knows, I'm probably folding 99 somewhat often and calling down with JJ when in doubt, and end up flipping a coin with TT.

      Sometimes you're wrong, sometimes you're right, you can't expect a very high % of good decisions when you have no information on villain, and you very rarely will at micro-stakes. You're just trying to make the best out of what you've got, so the most important thing is to act on the information you gather, what you do readless can very rarely be considered awful.

      If you call down with 99 and he shows you QQ, so be it, many people would play QQ like that, you didn't learn much and it wasn't a bad play either on your part. If you call down with TT and he shows you 99, then you know he'd probably play every overpair maybe even 6x for top pair like that and you shouldn't fold 99+ to him at all. If you call down with QQ and he shows you AK, then you know you have a license to call that guy down with almost any decent pair.

      Just be flexible and don't beat yourself up for decisions where you can't know what's right anyway, as long as you keep gathering useful information and using it to refine your lines against people you'll do fine.


      Hope it helps.
    • stevegold87
      stevegold87
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2009 Posts: 2,640
      Wow, what a very complete a nice answer from you MaestroofZerg, Thank you very much.

      I will make sure to look at this thread often to remember the 99/TT/JJ situation
    • Oly0909
      Oly0909
      Silver
      Joined: 08.06.2008 Posts: 843
      I was just reading articles again and look what I find :f_p:

      EXAMPLE 17 - WITH AN OVERPAIR
      Before the flop - NL25 Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
      You are on the BU 9 :heart: 9 :spade:

      UTG1, UTG2, UTG3, MP1, MP2 and MP3 fold
      CO bets $1
      You call $1
      SB and BB fold

      Flop - Active Players (2): You, CO - Pot: $2.35
      2 :diamond: 3 :diamond: 5 :heart:

      CO bets $1.50
      You raise to $5
      This time raising is the best option. The board shows a few draws - it's also likely that someone has an ace (gutshot). An overcard on the turn would put you in the dark.
      It's always best to raise in such a situation. Once again, you'll have to fold to a raise and make a new decision on the turn if you get called.
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      Hi,


      I can only tell you what I would do, you're always free to make up your own mind.