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[NL2-NL10] KK i 4bet, donked by lag

    • SiXAT
      Joined: 28.09.2008 Posts: 263
      Hand converted with online hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.01/$0.02 No-Limit Hold'em (5 handed)

      Known players:
      CO (Hero):

      Preflop: Hero is CO with K, K.
      MP3 folds, Hero raises to $0.08, BU folds, SB raises to $0.14, BB folds, Hero raises to $0.42, SB calls $0.28.

      Flop: ($0.86) 3, T, 2 (2 players)
      SB bets $0.20, Hero calls $0.20.

      Turn: ($1.26) 8 (2 players)
      SB bets $1.16, Hero calls $1.16.

      River: ($3.58) 8 (2 players)
      SB bets $2.50, Hero folds, SB gets uncalled bet back.

      Final Pot: $3.58.

      here ae the stats of the opp:
      fold to steal:30
      3bet:5% 1/22

      he was very loose, but still he was winning at the table so i gave him credit, he could minraise i guess with many pocket pairs, maybe some unexpexted hands like T8
  • 5 replies
    • Duudalinja
      Joined: 21.12.2009 Posts: 1,030
      I think when he called pre your 4bet he already shoved that he doesn't have AA. I don't think he's 3betting 33/22 ever, so we're left with question will he ever do that with TT?
      I say that all because it's the only hand (TT) you are against on flop (as I already excluded AA) and that leads me to decision - raise! He may have QQ/JJ and he's happy now there's no overcards and will keep playing anyway.
      As played turn doesn't change much and as you didn't raise flop he feels much more comfortable right now and may put you on some marginal hand. And as I doubt 88 is in his preflop 3betting range, turn card doesn't change anything and there's no reason to fold, more likely I would raise.
      As played without raising river changes even less as it's just makes 88 even more less likely and I don't see any real 8x combos in his range. If you called turn, call the river. He bet close to pot on turn and less than 4/5 on river, so your odds are even better. So I see folding as wrong option.
      Just my humble opinion.
    • EmanuelC16
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      I don't like your fold on the river. Either raise the flop or call down as turn and river are blanks.
    • SiXAT
      Joined: 28.09.2008 Posts: 263
      ok thx for the replies,
      Duudalinja, why dont u think he might 3bet 33, 22? its min3bet he can do it with whole lot of marginal hands.
      that he called the 4bet doesnt nessesarily exclude AA ithink
      my second thought was: he bet like 1\4 on flop so its kindda very weak and invites a raise by me after i 4bet, so my normal thoght would be- he wants me to raise he is strong, on the other hand this might be a weak hand that wants to block so i play for pot control.
      the turn bet was big and according to my read that he might min3bet me with connetcted suitors, small pocket pairs and big hands( iguess more often speculative hands with such ssmall min3bet), the 8 on the turn hit his range very well and i were thinkig about folding the turn, but ok he night still bet a weaker hand at that point.
      the river- why should he value bet with JJ or QQ? I 4 bet him,and its usually QQ+ sometimes AK, JJ, and once in a while its a bluff, but my image was tag so more often i have a hand when not.
      I think he can very often put me after the turn call on JJ+, beacause no way i will call big 2nd barrel with junk hand( if i bluffed).
      Of course maybe he doesnt think that deep, and he just sees a good hand QQ and thinks he has the nuts, i dont know.
    • Duudalinja
      Joined: 21.12.2009 Posts: 1,030
      He has 5% 3bet. If he 3bets 22/33 he would 3bet like 22+ range, so I would make ~6% overall, even without including AK and some speculative hands. Adding fact that it's NL2, I doubt he's polarizing his 3betting range, so he may 3bet looser, but 22/33 is just too far. He didn't seem like player who raises random hands, he likes to limp a lot often.
      That action may not necessarily exclude AA, but just most likely. Wouldn't you 5bet in such a situation against opp so deep but you'll better let him see flop and catch his outs?
      Well, I just see a lot of hands I can get value from by raising, so letting him through one street cheaply seems like -EV to me. Fold button will always be there.
      8 hits his range how? He might have 88, what else? 8T? 83? 82? Do you really think he would 3bet and call 4bet with such a hands?
      He keeps vbetting you because you just are so passive that he has no reason no to do it. But you can't fold river if you called turn because river card changes basically nothing, just makes 88 more impossible for him.
      Ofc he may have you beat, but I just don't like how it looks overall.
      It's just my opinion, my assumptions could be wrong - we're all learning here. :)
    • MaestroOfZerg
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510

      I don't give people credit just because they're up a few bucks, the fish sometimes run up huge stacks by still playing horribly and randomly sucking out on people.

      I won't discount the possibility of him having AA either, min3bet/call is actually quite common for fish with premium hands, once they find out you're interested they get all trappy. I'd say he can probably show up with 1/3 of the AA combos.

      Still, we beat enough QQ/JJ hands alone to warrant us felting that hand with a smile, this guy can also show up with random Tx hands that he'll have a tough time folding, so I agree we should just raise the flop and get it in if possible.

      As played I'm never folding the river since he could play JJ-QQ the same way, it's just too costly to be wrong when you fold in those posts, it's a worse mistake than calling to see a better hand.

      Hope it helps.