[NL2-NL10] JJ in multiway pot 3 bet PF

    • Xiven
      Xiven
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2009 Posts: 16
      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.02/$0.05 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)

      Known players:
      MP2:
      $4.56
      MP3:
      $1.54
      CO:
      $4.03
      BU (Hero):
      $5.60
      SB:
      $3.67
      BB:
      $8.03
      UTG2:
      $2.94
      MP1:
      $5.25


      Preflop: Hero is BU with J, J.
      2 folds, MP2 raises to $0.17, MP3 calls $0.17, CO folds, Hero raises to $0.60, SB calls $0.58, BB folds, MP2 raises to $2.00, 2 folds, SB calls $1.40.

      Flop: ($4.82) 6, 8, 5 (2 players)
      SB checks, MP2 bets $1.67, SB calls $1.67(All-In).

      Turn: ($8.16) K (2 players)


      River: ($8.16) Q (2 players)


      Final Pot: $8.16.

      I didn't know it at the time, but both villains who continued have a terribly wide 3 bet range.

      When this hand played out I was assuming they'd be continuing with AK, QQ+ hands which are killing me.

      Is it ever good to get it in with Jacks against multiple people PF?
  • 12 replies
    • Duudalinja
      Duudalinja
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.12.2009 Posts: 1,030
      I'm not really fan of getting AI with jacks against 4bet and two opps. If i had their stats and playing tendencies I may think about it, but overall I think I may see holding I don't wanna see at least from one of them. But 3betting is fine, I would do the same.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      I fold pre after 4bet.
    • benguela
      benguela
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2009 Posts: 22
      Assuming the hero called pre-flop because of the Call-20 guide in the SHC, which is what I may have done without a read on MP2.

      On the flop assume SB checks and MP 2 c-bets, what does the hero do?

      I would put the MP2 on

      22+
      AT+
      KQ+

      therefor the equity is

      Hero: 63
      MP2: 36

      I would call. Opinions?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      1.4 to win 5. Where is the Call 20 rule? It's not a must to use exactly 20 but here even if you get your opponents stack every time you flop a set you are not getting the correct odds. Do not forget MP2 raised and then 4bet. He is very likely holding KK+.
    • Duudalinja
      Duudalinja
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.12.2009 Posts: 1,030
      I would put the MP2 on 22+ AT+ KQ+


      Never. He is never 4betting so wide at these limits.
      And I don't wanna just setmine with JJ, so 3betting is fine.
    • benguela
      benguela
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2009 Posts: 22
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      1.4 to win 5. Where is the Call 20 rule?
      Pre-flop:

      2 folds,
      MP2 raises to $0.17,
      MP3 calls $0.17,
      CO folds,
      Hero calls as per Call-20 rule.

      .17 * 20 = $3.40, MP2 has $4.56 and Hero has $5.60. Is this not a Call 20 scenario?

      As per my original post "Assuming the hero called pre-flop ... MP2 c-bets"
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Jacks are too good to play just for set value. But not good enough to call 4bets or to 5bet. JJ and TT are such marginal hands that it's very simple to misplay them.
    • benguela
      benguela
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2009 Posts: 22
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Jacks are too good to play just for set value. But not good enough to call 4bets or to 5bet. JJ and TT are such marginal hands that it's very simple to misplay them.
      Therefor you're disagreeing with the SHC, why would it say Call20 for JJ ? I would expect that the authors of the SHC must have analysed this mathematically, but you must have some better evidence?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      SHC is a guide, not a law. And yes, I disagree with it when it comes to this matter. If you play ONLY by the SHC you will likely have too tight stats and be easily exploitable.
    • benguela
      benguela
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2009 Posts: 22
      Fair enough, don't always follows the SHC, but by what criteria did you decide that this case is one of those to not call20 and instead to re-raise? There are no stats on the villian at the point when the action comes around to the hero in pre-flop.

      Is it because the Hero is on the button and therefor has position on the villian with only the blinds still left to act?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      You have a raise from a player with a 90bb stack MP (not a reg, not early so he has a decent but not too strong range) and a call (seldom a sign on strength). You are on the BU therefore have position on both of them. The conditions are optimal for a squeeze play and you also have a good hand. The pot already is .41 and you have to put ~.65 to win .41 right away which roughly means that if you win 2/3 times preflop this is a winning play. Take into consideration how often we get called cbet and take it down or hit a set and have good implied odds this makes it a profitable play in the long run. Of course, this is at micros, I'm guessing at higher stakes play changes quite a while and we will get 4bet pre with a lot less than JJ+ as players will notice the good spot to squeeze.
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      Hi,


      Poker is a dynamic game, no static hand chart is ever going to make you play optimally. The SHC is basically just a summary of standard, easy plays you can make with different hands, designed so that it keeps you out of trouble and tough decisions while still playing profitably.

      As such calling with JJ in that spot is never a bad play, but it might not be the best play. I'm also squeezing in that spot because it's just too likely we'll stack the shorty MP3 if MP2 gets out of the way, and when we get 4-bet by a random microstakes player we have a pretty easy laydown with JJ. If MP2 is super tight it becomes a call since we can't expect him to fold much or call our 3-bet with worse, so by 3-betting we're just asking to get blown off our setmining hand and we'll lose the chance to crack whatever premium he has.


      Hope it helps.