[NL2-NL10] Top set vs. multiple villains, drawless board, how to best extract value on turn and river?

    • alenstrat
      Joined: 13.03.2009 Posts: 821
      So, what alternative plays to the way I played this would be better?

      I was quite disappointed at the result of this hand. Might just have been bad luck and that no one really had anything. I assume the main aggressor villain was on AK, so that's why he folded on the river. And the other callers, might have had a mid pocket pair or weak gutshot or something, or also overcards, which also folded to my river shove.

      I thought with a pot that size, anyone with anything would feel committed to call, so I thought shove was the best option. Obviously it wasn't. A 1/3 pot bet I assume would have gotten ie mid pair like 99 call. I thought there could be A10, or underset like 88, 77, 22 being slowrolled in there, since everyone was calling, on the flop and turn.

      Another doubt I have is if I should have lead bet into the turn. I was sure someone would bet $2 or so on the turn at least with a pot that size, so that $0.50 bet really screwed my plan up and I reverted to a min check raise to get more money in on the turn, like that the pot was big enough to shove at on the river.

      Might the checkraise on the turn have scared villains off? Ie call that small bet, and just value bet the river instead, might have been more profitable? I feel I was really shortchanged with top set vs. so many opponents. Lol I guess I was dreaming of a $30 or $40 pot and got a little greedy! :s_grin:

      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.05/$0.1 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)

      Known players:
      SB (Hero):

      Preflop: Hero is SB with T, T.
      UTG2 calls $0.10, 2 folds, MP3 raises to $0.45, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.40, BB calls $0.35, UTG2 calls $0.35.

      Flop: ($1.8) T, 2, 7 (4 players)
      Hero checks, BB bets $0.70, UTG2 calls $0.70, MP3 calls $0.70, Hero calls $0.70.

      Turn: ($4.6) 8 (4 players)
      Hero checks, BB checks, UTG2 bets $0.50, MP3 calls $0.50, Hero raises to $1.00, BB calls $1.00, UTG2 calls $0.50, MP3 calls $0.50.

      River: ($8.6) 3 (4 players)
      Hero bets $7.97, BB folds, UTG2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero gets uncalled bet back.

      Final Pot: $8.6.
  • 5 replies
    • BattleHunter
      Joined: 12.11.2009 Posts: 870
      Since there was a small bet on the flop that attracted many callers, a lot of them could've picked up a gutter and/or flush draw on the turn. Since there are quite some ugly cards that we don't want to see on the river, we really have two options:

      1) c/r - you did exactly that, but your sizing is extremely bad. While it sucks out ppl to call u, even if BB was to fold, UTG2 and MP3 get 1:13 and 1:14 immediate pot odds, meaning they are profitably calling you with a GUTSHOT. You never want villains to have that option. If you c/r make it at the very least 4$. While they can still call you with many hands u dominate, it also makes them level themselves when the river comes if they have like 5$ left in a 15$ pot (20 with our bet) and call you light because of what they see as "pot odds".

      2) Donk - if we donk we can still get value from many weaker hands. We protect better (although I agree that we can almost surely expect at least 1 of them to bet, sometimes it will be checked to the river). There are also a looot of backdoor draws that villains might be on and make a mistake with calling our 2/3 ~ 3/4 donk.

      imo both can work, depending on villains one can be more profitable than another. If we expect to get a min bet and call before us like it happened, then c/r is better as it gets slightly more value.

      No matter what, you always get value from other sets, random two pairs and overpairs, so don't be afraid of betting big :]
    • Duudalinja
      Joined: 21.12.2009 Posts: 1,030
      I like flop call as board is pretty safe for your hand, but definitely raise turn much bigger as BattleHunter suggested. Rather bad card came and who knows with what they may be holding in multi way pot, so protect what you have. And by raising bigger you will have much smaller stack by river you can easily shove.
      Donking is an option, but I tend to say that at least one opp should bet here, and if we donk we have to donk solid here, no minbets or 0.50$ bets.
      I understand you want to pull max money from them and not to scare away, but in multi way pot I wouldn't risk losing to some runners runners and give them too good odds to call.
    • Kaitz20
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      since there are like 2 callers I think you should c/r flop to 1.8$, then bet a little under half potsize on the turn and shove river
      You want to protect your hand and get value all the gutshots and maybe some weaker hand that are willing to call you down in family pot
      turn c/r is too small. Board is getting drawy, so you should make it at least 2.5$ or even bigger
    • Alficor1
      Joined: 16.06.2010 Posts: 7,291
      The river bet was waay too big imo. Ofc it depends on the villains, some might muck even a set and some will gladly pay you of with hand like JT.... I think i'd bet like 2-3 bucks. I'd bet a lot more on the turn, as the board started to be quite drawy.
    • alenstrat
      Joined: 13.03.2009 Posts: 821
      Yeah, I guess this was pretty much horribly played. Thanks for all the advice.

      I think for some reason I've stopped defending as aggresively against flush/straight draws. I think 90 or even 95% of suckouts I've had lately on big pots are vs. set or two pair. So I let my guard down against draws.

      But as pointed out, yeah the turn makes the board very drawy, plus I fail to get enough value from anyone with a weak draw by not betting there. So definitely betting 1/2 pot or more next time in the same circumstance. I guess I had opened a leak up trying to play too tricky/greedy trying to get it all in.