Villain bets 80% or 90% of his remaining stack on the river?

    • alenstrat
      alenstrat
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.03.2009 Posts: 821
      Actually this thread originated from a post in the hands evaluation forum, but I thought it was something interesting to discuss, since one sees it relatively often.

      I see so many fish/bad players do this type of donk bet/reraise on the river I'd like to know what everyone thinks it means in general. I personally haven't reached a clear enough conclusion on it.

      Why do so many small/midstacks or even some full stacks only raise/reraise like 80% or 90% of their stack instead of shoving on the river?

      I wouldn't like to be folding hands with good/medium showdown value to these bets if they are mostly bluffs, but on really ugly board one does end up folding TP TK or overpairs to these bets every so often.

      I can think of two lines of thought.

      1) It's a bluff raise and they don't want to lose their whole stack "just in case" you shove. LOL. As retarded as it sounds I've seen fish exhibit this behavior repeatedly, fold their bluff bets into hugh pots for example with $1 left of a $10 stack in a $18 pot! Or a $5 stack fold with $1 left of their stack when lead betting or reraising the river.

      2) They think if they shove it looks too scary, so they decide to bet like 3/4 or 4/5 of their stack instead of going allin. This is their way of getting "maximum value" for the nuts or really good hand.
  • 3 replies
    • erwite
      erwite
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.07.2010 Posts: 17
      I am a start-up. I do not consider myself a fish in any case. My strategy against fish is bluffing and betting constantly, preflop after flop, on the tunr and on the river. Except for I may place a check bet on the flop to see their reaction. If they really have a strong hand they would usually reraise it. The thing is that in most case you will find them folding, either on the flop or on the turn. Mathematical expectation of such a play is +. Of course it happens that you make a mistake. But in the long run it brings profits. I do not risk checking nearly all in bet on the river, especially if there was not action on the flop and on the turn. In many cases they get their hand completed and if the pot is small there no point in taking unnecessary risk
    • MrMardyBum
      MrMardyBum
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.03.2009 Posts: 2,206
      Originally posted by erwite
      I am a start-up. I do not consider myself a fish in any case. My strategy against fish is bluffing and betting constantly, preflop after flop, on the tunr and on the river. Except for I may place a check bet on the flop to see their reaction. If they really have a strong hand they would usually reraise it. The thing is that in most case you will find them folding, either on the flop or on the turn. Mathematical expectation of such a play is +. Of course it happens that you make a mistake. But in the long run it brings profits. I do not risk checking nearly all in bet on the river, especially if there was not action on the flop and on the turn. In many cases they get their hand completed and if the pot is small there no point in taking unnecessary risk
      All good except trying to bluff fish It just won't work enough if you have nothing... A fish is someone that calls down pretty much regardless of their hand, so if you're on a stone cold bluff and the fish is sitting with middle pair expect a call down imo.
    • MrMardyBum
      MrMardyBum
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.03.2009 Posts: 2,206
      And in regards to the massive river bets, unless you have the nuts or extremely close to it. Just fold, they are playing a completed hand to many times. Note it down each time they do it, when you get a decent hand let them take control and hopefully make that same move, don't shove over the top, just call that way you get to see the range of the hands that they are doing this with, note this down also each time they get looked up by you or another player at your table.

      Once you get three or four hands you'll be able to know what he/she is doing this with. Okay they may of lost their stack by then, but that's the beauty of fish, at some point they will reload.

      It's also worth dating your notes and searching for players at the tables you have marked as fish because when you've been playing a site a few months you'll be able to see if they deposit when they get paid and roughly what time of month (or week) that is, so you'll know when to keep an eye out for them.

      I personally keep a fish list for each limit written in a notepad and just search before I go hunting for tables.