[Question] To all you mid - high players.

    • BCShad0w
      BCShad0w
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.06.2010 Posts: 78
      I have come across a fustrating and some times angered end to micro/low stake SnGs and even Cahsh Games. I myself have generally a 15-20 hand range which have exceptions here and there concerning position, raises and callers.

      Everytime I enter into a SnG, it's very often for me to get cracked by some tool playing Q2 suited or T5s and I see many other players get cracked by them too. I'll happily go all in with JJ or higher, and if it's a bigger pair, then a slap on the wrist for me... However, it is not always the case, and I do get cracked alot.

      People at micro/low poker marry these types of hands, and whatever I have, variance normally brings me to an end and getting cracked! I have cashed a few 9-27 man SnGs, but it's almost impossible to come against someone who doesn't play these trash hands and comes out on top, and as we all know, there is huge variance within STT/DTT/TTT and is hard to come out on top all the time.

      ...However, last night, I lose my discipline and put my last $11 on a $10+1 SnG... And wow, what a change I saw on the hands played, and how the game is played. The way it suited me was great. Players being serious about their hands, not shoving all in before the flop unless shortstacked and generally respecting each others raises unless they thought they have the better hand, of course. Now here comes my question:

      Are all games at this level played like this, or did I just see a saint game?

      I'm asking this, because essentailly, I have done my maths and I actually have enough money to put onto online poker to work with bankroll management, to play $10+1 SnGs... However, I only intend to if games that I played last night are the general action of things.

      I just want to get away from the less serious playings on micro/low stake poker where raises arnt respected, many players marry suited hands or ANY pocket pair, where no one considers pot odds, people do not care about position and generally are gambling, rather than taking correct risks for reward.

      I would like your opinion and experience at mid-high stake levels to help me understand the game alittle more and to decide whether I want to invest more money or not.

      Thanks for reading this long ass message, my apologies!

      /Simon
  • 14 replies
    • chessmaster1234
      chessmaster1234
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2010 Posts: 96
      If you cant beat the micro stakes then you dont even consider higher stakes. Just stick to brm rules and you will crush the limits one day. You have to be patient, dont rush things. Post in the downswing section to vent and read The Poker Mindset.
    • Tampaloeres81
      Tampaloeres81
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.03.2009 Posts: 1,416
      Agreed. Why to people say they dont want to be called by garbage hands????????????????????????

      Tell them "Nice hand" :f_biggrin: and think "Thank you"

      T.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Sounds like a great idea! I'd recommend putting all your life savings on the poker tables and grinding out high stakes. Everyone at high stakes respect each others raises and is in fact a winning player, leave micros and small stakes to idiots who are so stupid they choose to play against dumber people than they are. Only idiots play against losing players, it's a fact!
    • Alficor1
      Alficor1
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.06.2010 Posts: 7,291
      Look, there's noone in the world who hates aces being cracked by T4s more than me. Ofc, sometimes i really feel like throwing up, but then i just vent somewhere and i'm alright. Remember, that in long run, you'll be the winner. If there weren't players making such mistakes, microstakes poker would be much less profitable.

      What i really dont understand is, that some people complain about too many bad players and some complain about the lack of them. I'd rather play at a table with 8 other players players who play any-two-suited then against regs who play only good hands.

      Trust me, next time you have aces and get paid by a guy holdin queen-high, you'll wish all players were like that. :s_love:
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Yes we all hate being called by worse hands thats why its best to start at 50$ SnGs. U make way more profit that way.
    • Styr
      Styr
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.03.2009 Posts: 408
      I did a run of steps tournaments in Full Tilt - The Poker site that makes you tilt. Managed to get to Step 7, the final level, that is.

      And based on what I saw on my journey up:

      Step 1 and 2 - Same level of play you'd expect from a regular SNG. i.e fishy.
      Step 3 - Somewhat more sensible.
      Step 4 and 5 - Rather more difficult, but playable. People actually know what they are doing.
      Step 5 - People knew what they were doing. Most of the time, that is.
      Step 6 - Yes, smart people were playing there too. Saw one once.
      Step 7 - Gamblers only. You see, why would a gambler want to spend his time on a tournament with a buy-in smaller than $2700? They want to get rich quickly. I saw one idiot buy in to the next $2700 tournament, making it unlikely he had managed to win his way up.

      I am not saying that all the games are like this. But the steps at Full Tilt are.
    • BCShad0w
      BCShad0w
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.06.2010 Posts: 78
      Originally posted by chessmaster1234
      If you cant beat the micro stakes then you dont even consider higher stakes. Just stick to brm rules and you will crush the limits one day. You have to be patient, dont rush things. Post in the downswing section to vent and read The Poker Mindset.
      I think you're missing the point. I am greatful for your comments, and take them all on board. I will deffo check that book or article =].However...

      I have a chunk of money that could be invested into poker. Enough to see $10+1 SnGs correct under BRM. I put a cheeky $10 into FTP as well as winning the $50 off of here [extremely helpful].

      One will always lose sometimes on all limits. My question and concern was to hear how certain limits were played, and if someone like myself who respects raises, pot odds, position, starting hand etc if it would be a just decision to move up to higher limits than micro.

      I do win at micro levels, however, when I dont, sometimes I get beaten by good hands - correct starting hands or these shabby trash hand callers who marry their cards because they're suited!

      I have no problem losing, I just prefer to see myself go further into a SnG rather than eventualy going all in with hands such as AQ to get busted by a Q2 or T5. Lol. I'd also prefer to lose to better opponents, where I can gain experience and find my leaks etc.

      It's extremely hard to find leaks when facing Q2 or T5 with AQ and trying to figre out: Did I or did I not respect the raise or even reraise/ did I respect my position and the opponents position/ have I been playing too long/ are my odds correct etc.

      Again, I do thank you for your input =].
    • Lizocain
      Lizocain
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2009 Posts: 173
      you will never want ppl to call your AA with T2 when the flop is TT2, but when the flop is not T2x then you will be happy, and math says u should be happy in the long term.. so without fish, none would make a single cent, it would be all just a blindsteal game where nobody will pay you off unless ur beat or u get lucky having AA vs KK...I'd be happy to see a fishstrategy.com once to make us happier..
    • Wurble
      Wurble
      Silver
      Joined: 04.04.2009 Posts: 456
      Originally posted by BCShad0w
      Originally posted by chessmaster1234
      If you cant beat the micro stakes then you dont even consider higher stakes. Just stick to brm rules and you will crush the limits one day. You have to be patient, dont rush things. Post in the downswing section to vent and read The Poker Mindset.
      I think you're missing the point. I am greatful for your comments, and take them all on board. I will deffo check that book or article =].However...

      I have a chunk of money that could be invested into poker. Enough to see $10+1 SnGs correct under BRM. I put a cheeky $10 into FTP as well as winning the $50 off of here [extremely helpful].

      One will always lose sometimes on all limits. My question and concern was to hear how certain limits were played, and if someone like myself who respects raises, pot odds, position, starting hand etc if it would be a just decision to move up to higher limits than micro.

      I do win at micro levels, however, when I dont, sometimes I get beaten by good hands - correct starting hands or these shabby trash hand callers who marry their cards because they're suited!

      I have no problem losing, I just prefer to see myself go further into a SnG rather than eventualy going all in with hands such as AQ to get busted by a Q2 or T5. Lol. I'd also prefer to lose to better opponents, where I can gain experience and find my leaks etc.

      It's extremely hard to find leaks when facing Q2 or T5 with AQ and trying to figre out: Did I or did I not respect the raise or even reraise/ did I respect my position and the opponents position/ have I been playing too long/ are my odds correct etc.

      Again, I do thank you for your input =].
      Don't mean to be harsh but you're missing everyone elses points entirely.

      Once you've played a thousand or more micro stakes sng's the variance should have balanced out somewhat and you should see a handsome profit although it is possible it could take more than 1k sng's.

      As others have said, if you are unable to beat the micro's where people call you when you are ahead 70\30 or whatever then what chance do you have against $10+1 regs where your edge is only 1 or 2% (if you're awesome)... ?

      If you have money for a roll at higher stakes then keep grinding micro's until you're showing a decent roi over a decent sample and then move up... If you move up too soon (now) you'll get destroyed.
    • BCShad0w
      BCShad0w
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.06.2010 Posts: 78
      Originally posted by Wurble
      Originally posted by BCShad0w
      Originally posted by chessmaster1234
      If you cant beat the micro stakes then you dont even consider higher stakes. Just stick to brm rules and you will crush the limits one day. You have to be patient, dont rush things. Post in the downswing section to vent and read The Poker Mindset.
      I think you're missing the point. I am greatful for your comments, and take them all on board. I will deffo check that book or article =].However...

      I have a chunk of money that could be invested into poker. Enough to see $10+1 SnGs correct under BRM. I put a cheeky $10 into FTP as well as winning the $50 off of here [extremely helpful].

      One will always lose sometimes on all limits. My question and concern was to hear how certain limits were played, and if someone like myself who respects raises, pot odds, position, starting hand etc if it would be a just decision to move up to higher limits than micro.

      I do win at micro levels, however, when I dont, sometimes I get beaten by good hands - correct starting hands or these shabby trash hand callers who marry their cards because they're suited!

      I have no problem losing, I just prefer to see myself go further into a SnG rather than eventualy going all in with hands such as AQ to get busted by a Q2 or T5. Lol. I'd also prefer to lose to better opponents, where I can gain experience and find my leaks etc.

      It's extremely hard to find leaks when facing Q2 or T5 with AQ and trying to figre out: Did I or did I not respect the raise or even reraise/ did I respect my position and the opponents position/ have I been playing too long/ are my odds correct etc.

      Again, I do thank you for your input =].
      Don't mean to be harsh but you're missing everyone elses points entirely.

      Once you've played a thousand or more micro stakes sng's the variance should have balanced out somewhat and you should see a handsome profit although it is possible it could take more than 1k sng's.

      As others have said, if you are unable to beat the micro's where people call you when you are ahead 70\30 or whatever then what chance do you have against $10+1 regs where your edge is only 1 or 2% (if you're awesome)... ?

      If you have money for a roll at higher stakes then keep grinding micro's until you're showing a decent roi over a decent sample and then move up... If you move up too soon (now) you'll get destroyed.
      I totally accept what others are saying. It's why I made this thread, and thank you for your opinion =].

      However, are you telling me every player here started at micro stakes, even if they had the bankroll for higher stakes? If they did, I'd lay day my opinion and call it a day and accept it. However, I don't honestly think people who can bankroll $10 SnGs started at micro... Until they got destroyed and had to drop [worst case scenerio in my opinion, and a lesson learnt]

      I'd rather lose to higher stake players and gain experience than play against donks and learn nothing about myself. Maybe this is just a personal flaw in my thinking, and a potential dent in my investment [if I was to invest].

      I also dont mind you being harsh... Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and there are many who have more experience than I do, and I welcome it all, encourging or degrading. I couldn't ask for anything else, because at least my question is getting answered, and Im getting other players views and opinions. Dont be sorry for what you say to me, I don't mind =].
    • ihufa
      ihufa
      Gold
      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 3,323
      11$ sngs are highstakes rofl

      but try playing them

      keep on trucking 8-)

      ihufa
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Hey BCShad0w

      You really need to consider this:

      Do you want to lose occassionally with good hands v terrible players at micro stakes, or do you want to lose often v excellent players who never pay you off, and are far more likely to win your money because they exploit your leaks?

      Learn your craft the inexpensive way IMO, and spend more time studying.
    • BCShad0w
      BCShad0w
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.06.2010 Posts: 78
      Originally posted by ihufa
      11$ sngs are highstakes rofl

      but try playing them

      keep on trucking 8-)

      ihufa
      They're classed as low on FTP. I've played two, cashed in two. However, after tonight, I've taught myself a big lesson.

      Originally posted by Waiboy
      Hey BCShad0w

      You really need to consider this:

      Do you want to lose occassionally with good hands v terrible players at micro stakes, or do you want to lose often v excellent players who never pay you off, and are far more likely to win your money because they exploit your leaks?

      Learn your craft the inexpensive way IMO, and spend more time studying.
      After tonight, I'll think I shall stick to micro stakes.

      I've taught myself one thing, and thats value.

      I was so tied up to thinking $4.5 is only $4.5, but it isn't. Essentially, it's another 3 SnGs with a potential winning $13.5. I also go tied up on thinking $45 was better than $4.5, and it is to many people, but not for me.

      I'll rarely, if ever cash out on FTP unless I hit BIG. Due to that, my financial position isn't going to change, so I should just relax and play micro.

      I should just play basic and simple, and if I play with correct and with the discipline, I'll be the one out on top in the long run, and I think I snapped myself out of whatever I was in, and returned to the long run thinking path.

      I have taught myself another thing... I WANT to get into those $11 SnGs. Now Ive had a taste, I think I have the drive to grit my teeth through the bad beats and remain mentally strong.

      $45 is alot of money in my eyes, but am I going to cash in every $11 I put forward, no.

      I guess within left than 24 hours, all your opinions and my own maturity have prevailed, and stopped me from going broke from poor BRM.... One lesson of many to learn =].

      Thank you all.
    • Ultifanatic
      Ultifanatic
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.04.2008 Posts: 100
      Originally posted by BCShad0w

      I have a chunk of money that could be invested into poker. Enough to see $10+1 SnGs correct under BRM. I put a cheeky $10 into FTP as well as winning the $50 off of here [extremely helpful].

      Ummm Not to sound against what most of the post here are saying but, if you have proper bankroll management for something higher than micro limit SnGs.....Then it is entirely up to you if you want to use that money to bankroll yourself for a higher limit....what you can afford for pokers is what you allow yourself to afford for poker....

      Not everyone starts at $1 SnGs or NL2...

      Of the other hand....I think that playing a micro limit with your larger bankroll is quite a good deal. You can spend some of the overhead cash that is not in your poker account on a few good poker books, maybe a cardrunners or other poker teaching site or use it to move your accounts around easier to clear some bonuses....

      Also, having a larger bankroll allows you to set yourself some goals that are not entirely money based. If you set yourself a goal to play a specific large number of SnGs over say 6 months and have a goal of attaining a specific ROI or higher. Then even if you do not make enough money to properly move up with your poker account bankroll, you can then say you achieved your goal. Which in turn may give you enough confidence to top up your poker account with some of your extra bankroll which will allow you to start playing a higher limit a little sooner if you are ready for it....

      Lastly, if in 6 more months of playing, you find yourself still getting annoyed by micro donks that call with T2 and suck out on you....well then either poker is just not for you OR you have not learned enough about poker yet....