[NL20-NL50] NL 50 SH, AKo, CO Vs BU 4bet/cAI

    • Anger86
      Anger86
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.08.2008 Posts: 511
      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.25/$0.5 No-Limit Hold'em (6 handed)

      Known players:
      MP3:
      $23.00
      CO (Hero):
      $61.00
      BU:
      $122.90
      SB:
      $17.50
      BB:
      $51.60
      MP2:
      $51.25


      Preflop: Hero is CO with A, K.
      2 folds, Hero raises to $1.25, BU raises to $4.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $13.00, BU raises to $122.90, Hero calls $48.00.


      Hello strategists,

      Villains stats:
      Hands: 428
      VPIP/PFR: 19/16
      AF: 4.2
      3bet: 5.7


      I think, it is a clear call AI, just wanted to know your thoughts.
      Also stats for 3bet in different positions:
      BU 3bet: 6 %
      SB 3bet: 9 %
      BB 3bet: 4 %

      Thanks!
  • 10 replies
    • VzLOM
      VzLOM
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.12.2007 Posts: 3,671
      dunno, you a bit deep. I would like to see his low fold@4b to be sure we standing good.
    • Anger86
      Anger86
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.08.2008 Posts: 511
      Originally posted by VzLOM
      dunno, you a bit deep. I would like to see his low fold@4b to be sure we standing good.

      Fold to 4bet, from 2 hands (situations): 0%
      We need a large sample.
      I guess 400 hands is not enough.
    • VzLOM
      VzLOM
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.12.2007 Posts: 3,671
      i think when you dont have large sample you could watch his 4b% and fold@3b to know his tendenices while this spots have smth in common.
      Anyway 4b\push will not be a large -ev while you both fighting in late pos.
    • tcs35
      tcs35
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.01.2009 Posts: 3,583
      Hello,

      You need to have 38% equity (hopefully my maths is good) to make this call. If you are facing a range of AK, KK+ then you have exactly 38% equity. If you ever think he throws some bluffs or some smaller pocket pairs then you are dancing.

      (if i've done my maths wrong then im sorry)

      Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

      25,684,560 games 0.028 secs 917,305,714 games/sec

      Board:
      Dead:

      equity win tie pots won pots tied
      Hand 0: 37.057% 08.19% 28.87% 2103653 7414334.50 { AcKd }
      Hand 1: 62.943% 34.08% 28.87% 8752238 7414334.50 { KK+, AKs, AKo }
    • N0pr3s3n7
      N0pr3s3n7
      Platinum
      Joined: 14.05.2009 Posts: 1,286
      Originally posted by TobyCS
      Hello,

      You need to have 38% equity (hopefully my maths is good) to make this call. If you are facing a range of AK, KK+ then you have exactly 38% equity. If you ever think he throws some bluffs or some smaller pocket pairs then you are dancing.

      (if i've done my maths wrong then im sorry)

      Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

      25,684,560 games 0.028 secs 917,305,714 games/sec

      Board:
      Dead:

      equity win tie pots won pots tied
      Hand 0: 37.057% 08.19% 28.87% 2103653 7414334.50 { AcKd }
      Hand 1: 62.943% 34.08% 28.87% 8752238 7414334.50 { KK+, AKs, AKo }
      this is all okey.But don't you look in which call to make ?
      I've been watching a lot lately on particular hands such as 4bets with AK/AQ and the equity to call.In this manner I can let every hand to become profitable to call e.g. we have 8s9s here we got 25%equity,well i'd 4bet to 20 euros and say well i have to call 20% more i have 1:4 to call so i call it.Here this hand I think is more about adjusting to his shoving range as i'd never see this guy shoving all in with anything worst than AK that being said i'd hope to see a QQ there versus which we are still behind.So the actual play should come up from does he go all in with AQ/AJ(meaning he makes some bluff shoves,not total bluffs but bluffs according to his range in my view)
      to make a 4bet/call profitable?If you want to go broke with AK you can even shove right away no matter what happens but i'd say here we should either adjust our 4betting size,so we can fold to a shove or just flat preflop although we are OOP and without the iniative.We can still be making play on K/A board which would be the same as going broke but we will often seem him continuing only with AA/KK there so not the best thing to do also.

      As i read what I just wrote it's a little bit confusing as most of the people would suggest to almost never probably fold AK to a shove preflop until NL100 unless the guy has something like 2-3% 3bet and 1% 4bet etc.But i hope you can get my point of view and think over it.
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      I don't think a guy with 19/16 is ever shoving AQ,AJ. He might be shoving QQ but not less.
      So his range is QQ+,AK.

      I think this opponent is the toughest one to face.
      Versus a 5/3 there is no question to fold.
      Versus a 35/20 there is no question to shove. What to do versus a 19/16??

      Maybe the hand judge can give us a clear analysis of such hand.
    • N0pr3s3n7
      N0pr3s3n7
      Platinum
      Joined: 14.05.2009 Posts: 1,286
      Originally posted by Dublimax
      I don't think a guy with 19/16 is ever shoving AQ,AJ. He might be shoving QQ but not less.
      So his range is QQ+,AK.

      I think this opponent is the toughest one to face.
      Versus a 5/3 there is no question to fold.
      Versus a 35/20 there is no question to shove. What to do versus a 19/16??

      Maybe the hand judge can give us a clear analysis of such hand.
      +1.My point of view was this oriented as AK is never profitable to be all in versus such a guy although we are getting the right odds to call him.
    • Shevtshenko
      Shevtshenko
      Silver
      Joined: 06.12.2009 Posts: 4,103
      +1.My point of view was this oriented as AK is never profitable to be all in versus such a guy although we are getting the right odds to call him.


      Wtf does that mean?! What odds are you calculating? If pot odds with equity says that it's a call, it's a profitable call. And I'd never muck AK buvsco with 120bb without having nit-reads.
    • N0pr3s3n7
      N0pr3s3n7
      Platinum
      Joined: 14.05.2009 Posts: 1,286
      Originally posted by Shevtshenko
      +1.My point of view was this oriented as AK is never profitable to be all in versus such a guy although we are getting the right odds to call him.


      Wtf does that mean?! What odds are you calculating? If pot odds with equity says that it's a call, it's a profitable call. And I'd never muck AK buvsco with 120bb without having nit-reads.
      you put his range in the equlator like QQ/KK/AA/AKs/AKo and versus this range we have probably 37% ~ eq.But put in KK/AA for the shove and get the odds to call it.Everyone will start blaming his range is wider but it's not in my point of view.If you got the reads he might be shoving QQ/AKs/AKo it's fine to call for the odds but you call for odds with the BEST HOPE you are flipping.

      Originally posted by Shevtshenko
      +1.My point of view was this oriented as AK is never profitable to be all in versus such a guy although we are getting the right odds to call him.


      Wtf does that mean?! What odds are you calculating? If pot odds with equity says that it's a call, it's a profitable call. And I'd never muck AK buvsco with 120bb without having nit-reads.

      by what you just said i tried to explain on my previous post that you can convert any hand in profitable pot odds - equity call :f_confused: :f_confused: but im pretty sure in long run you will stop shoving AK versus such opponents
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Originally posted by Dublimax
      I don't think a guy with 19/16 is ever shoving AQ,AJ. He might be shoving QQ but not less.
      So his range is QQ+,AK.

      I think this opponent is the toughest one to face.
      Versus a 5/3 there is no question to fold.
      Versus a 35/20 there is no question to shove. What to do versus a 19/16??

      Maybe the hand judge can give us a clear analysis of such hand.
      You can never 4-bet/fold there AK, unless player is really nitty and even then I think I´d just either call or fold pf, rather than 4-bet him
      19/16 is not really the tightest player, so getting there all-in 120bb is perfectly fine

      When 4-betting you have to consider table dynamics and most of the nl 50 sh tables, at least ftp, players are 4-bet bluffiong there quite often, so people are widening there 3-bet/shoving range easily as light as AQ+/TT+ and against that range AK is doing very well

      If you don´t expect to see too many times that range if you 4-bet with AK and you don´t want to flip against QQ+/AK range then maybe indeed better is just calling 3-bet oop and then playing fast your hand on A and K high boards. But if you fold out a lot of his 3-bet range, then I´d still prefer 4-betting, since he won´t then 3-bet too light and if you 4-bet AK then you also widen your 4-betting range than just QQ+. Anyway better is shoving aggression and trying to take pot down without showdown and 4-betting is quite good weapon for that