SSS a strategy for perfect players?

    • SilverSag
      SilverSag
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 512
      For some reason the thread where I just asked the question was locked ?( I still want to know the answer, though :evil: Or is this some kind of taboo topic?

      The question about real-life profitability of SSS has started to bother me as well after yesterday. I played 1000+ hands of NL10, lost 7$ and started to go through statistics to find leaks. I knew that I did one obvious mistake - at one moment of weakness I decided to slowplay pocket aces and that cost me 2$, but there should be more. I looked through all the lost hands and couldn't find any... and then I started to think:

      They say that win rate for SSS is 0.5-2.0BB/100hands. OK, lets say its the 1,5 BB/100h. So in my 1000-hand session I should win on average 1,5$, right?

      Wait a second! :f_confused:

      That's if I am playing perfectly! If we take into account that a mistake in SSS will cost you all stack (2$ in average) then, according to this info I am allowed to make no more than 1(!) mistake in 1000 hands. If I happen to make two, then I am doomed to neverending downswing! :f_cry:

      If I am understanding it right, then there is no point in playing SSS unless you have some bonus to clear or a rakeback deal in effect, because nobody is perfect, and there always be some mistakes?

      So? Can I get a straight answer to this? Is SSS a "perfect strategy for a beginner" only because I will lose less than by playing any other strategy? Is there any reason to think that SSS can be profitable without any bonuses and rakebacks?

      Or... the only way how to actually make money in SSS is to succesfully steal blinds and to perfect postflop freeplay when on BB?! :f_eek:

      I would really appreciate an answer from someone who knows what he is talking about , not just some "I have played SSS for X amount of hands and it works just fine!" gibberish, because I dont want to waste my time practising something what can brake me even at best :f_mad: I'd rather switch to playing SnGs then...

      Thank you in advance!
  • 22 replies
    • strosdegoz
      strosdegoz
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.11.2007 Posts: 184
      I think you are right, SSS sucks!
      I tried it for a long time with no success, now doing good in HU
    • SirPaulius
      SirPaulius
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.11.2009 Posts: 580
      I played 5k+ hands and running 7.86bb/100hands . Maybe I'm just lucky but Im 100% sure I've made mistakes wich cost me alot of $ .
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Just one thing to say: You would make 1.5BB/100 if you played it perfectly and opponents made very few if any mistakes. Opponents make mistakes therefore you have to make less mistakes than them to win in any kind of poker.
    • Tampaloeres81
      Tampaloeres81
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.03.2009 Posts: 1,416
      Hi,

      1000 hands is a way too small sample size to say anything. I've played like 100k hands SSS and my winrate is 2xbb/100 and I still make lots of mistakes :f_biggrin: . The point is you should try to find weak players and exploit them, just as in every form of poker.

      Of course you should always try to find and plug leaks, since the higher limits you play the stronger the regs become. Fish is everywhere :P

      Gl.

      T.
    • buelebuel
      buelebuel
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.07.2008 Posts: 15
      Try SNG :D its much better. i sucked too in SSS because i do sometimes mistakes and was way too loose. Fullring-9-Table SNG not turbo are really good to play on Full Tilt!
      you should try to read SNG strategy =)
    • TetraQuark
      TetraQuark
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.05.2008 Posts: 1,520
      Hi!

      I believe you are looking at the whole thing from wrong perspective.

      Let`s say u are just starting with the whole "poker thing". I hardly know a person that has played an A game from the beginning. When you start, there is a whole learning process u have to go through. Knowing odds, starting hand charts, lines, don`t even get me startet how hard it becomes to most ppl when they have to apply to bankrool management, selfstudy and selfcontrol!

      So when putting this together I gotta say SSS is a nice way of knowing the basics of poker but is by far not everything a great game like poker has to offer.
      With SSS variance can be brutal, but that is one more reason you have to be disciplined.

      About blindbattle situations, yes u gotta be good there, because otherwise you loose tons of value overtime. So read articles, whatch videos.

      + SSS: -good basics
      -learn about disciplin & selfcontrol
      -maybe even get really good and make some serious
      money on mid-highstakes
      -good for grinding and rakeback (especialy with mass multitabling)

      - SSS: -not really everything game of poker offers itself
      -cruel variance

      EDIT: Samplesize of 1k hands is really nothing! Grind out at least 50k hands and see where u stand.
    • SilverSag
      SilverSag
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 512
      Thanks for answers, but I would just like to clarify few things:

      I mentioned 1000 hands only as an example, because in this 1000 hand session I found only one costly mistake and I studied all hands where I lost any money (excluding blinds). I am new, I have done around 20 000 hands only and around 9000 of them at NL10 (about -2BB/100 so far).

      Also I would like to add that even though I am new to poker, I have played live casino BlackJack at stakes up to 2000$ per hand and managed to stay in green for 3 years in a row only because of following basic strategy to the T and keeping very strict bankroll management and discipline. So I do understand the importance of these things.

      So, basically what you are saying is:

      That on a long run even with more than 1 mistake in 100 hands I can still plan to achieve more than 2BB/100h only because my average opponent will make more mistakes than me?

      And what about profitable tables? Everybody says its very important and I can see why, but I play on Everest and most of the time plyr/flop percentage is around 15%. Yesterday at one moment half of the tables were showing 7-9%. :s_evil:

      There are so many rocks that it feels like sitting in a Stonehenge, not poker table :s_evil: You could probably succesfully steal blinds from UTG3 there :s_evil: How can you choose anything there?

      Should I go to different poker room? But which one? For now the bonus on Everest keeps me afloat, but if it goes like this I will need to change, I guess...
    • lollujo
      lollujo
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.07.2010 Posts: 201
      I've played with you a few times on Everest's NL10 tables. I've played 15000 hands of SSS on there and in that time have increased my bankroll from $50 to $110. From what I've learnt in that time, the key to success is blind stealing. If you can steal the blinds once per round on average, it gives you unlimited time to wait for the premium hands that earn you the big money.

      The other advantage to stealing (and getting caught stealing from time to time) is that your opponents start to think you're stealing everytime you raise. Last night I raised to 4bb from middle position with AA and got re-raised all in by the big blind who had 52o! Everest is full of fish like that, you just need to be patient and take advantage of the rocks by stealing their blinds.
    • Tampaloeres81
      Tampaloeres81
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.03.2009 Posts: 1,416
      Hi,

      The basic SSS is easy but limited. The more you learn the more you will adjust to your opponents.

      Watch you opponents, and try to find the fish ASAP. You can get it in against them with a wider range.

      If the tables are very tight, you loosen up. You will take the blinds more often or people start playing back at you and pay off your big hands. ;)
      If the tables are very fishy, you tighten up. No reason to play marginal hands against fish.

      Yes blindsteals are important.

      hmm 1 mistake per 100 hands, is a bit much I think. But there are many player that make a lot more :f_biggrin:

      T.
    • SilverSag
      SilverSag
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 512
      Originally posted by lollujo
      the key to success is blind stealing. If you can steal the blinds once per round on average, it gives you unlimited time to wait for the premium hands that earn you the big money.
      Funny that you wrote that... because yesterday I reached that conclusion myself :D
    • lollujo
      lollujo
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.07.2010 Posts: 201
      Originally posted by SilverSag
      Originally posted by lollujo
      the key to success is blind stealing. If you can steal the blinds once per round on average, it gives you unlimited time to wait for the premium hands that earn you the big money.
      Funny that you wrote that... because yesterday I reached that conclusion myself :D
      I noticed when you kept stealing my blinds!
    • SilverSag
      SilverSag
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 512
      Originally posted by lollujo
      Originally posted by SilverSag
      Originally posted by lollujo
      the key to success is blind stealing. If you can steal the blinds once per round on average, it gives you unlimited time to wait for the premium hands that earn you the big money.
      Funny that you wrote that... because yesterday I reached that conclusion myself :D
      I noticed when you kept stealing my blinds!
      Well I knew that you are shortie, so I did that only with strong hole cards :D
    • happyteerak
      happyteerak
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.08.2010 Posts: 65
      I have started to think that SSS is really just for learning the basics and, even though the maths add up, is not for winning money. To much variance is involved. I am over 12,000 hands so far, and although I make some mistakes, they are quite few. I am up a total of $5 on my inital starting stack in that time or according to elephant 1.17bb/100. This number is not quite correct though Elephant still has a few holes. Not ony that but it is terribly frustrating to repeatedly get called by much weaker hands and still lose. I had doubled my inital stake orginally about 10 days ago and since then have been on a downward slide, despite improving my play during that same time period. It seems to me that I have made about .4bb/100 hands so far. It is quite hard to build your bankroll at this kind of pace! Any others feeling this and finding better ways to improve performance?
    • Tampaloeres81
      Tampaloeres81
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.03.2009 Posts: 1,416
      Originally posted by happyteerak
      Not ony that but it is terribly frustrating to repeatedly get called by much weaker hands and still lose.
      For everyone complaing about fish calling with crap:
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $4(BB) Replayer
      SB ($231)
      BB ($11.80)
      UTG ($542)
      UTG+1 ($323)
      UTG+2 ($143)
      Hero ($95.90)
      BTN ($160)

      Dealt to Hero Q:club: Q:spade:

      fold, fold, UTG+2 raises to $8, Hero raises to $24, fold, fold, BB calls $7.80 (AI), UTG+2 calls $16

      FLOP ($61.80) 7:club: 6:diamond: T:spade:

      UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $34, UTG+2 raises to $119 (AI), Hero calls $37.90 (AI)

      TURN ($205) 7:club: 6:diamond: T:spade: J:diamond:

      RIVER ($205) 7:club: 6:diamond: T:spade: J:diamond: 9:club:

      BB shows K:diamond: 4:diamond:
      (Pre 28%, Flop 20.1%, Turn 28.6%)

      UTG+2 shows 5:club: 2:club:
      (Pre 17%, Flop 8.5%, Turn 0.0%)

      Hero shows Q:club: Q:spade:
      (Pre 56%, Flop 71.4%, Turn 71.4%)

      Hero wins $202

      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $4(BB) Replayer
      SB ($237)
      BB ($160)
      UTG ($108)
      UTG+1 ($374)
      UTG+2 ($126)
      Hero ($80)
      BTN ($67)

      Dealt to Hero A:spade: T:spade:

      UTG calls $4, fold, UTG+2 raises to $8, Hero raises to $24, fold, fold, fold, UTG calls $20, fold

      FLOP ($62) Q:spade: A:diamond: 6:diamond:

      UTG checks, Hero bets $56 (AI), UTG calls $56

      TURN ($174) Q:spade: A:diamond: 6:diamond: 3:club:

      RIVER ($174) Q:spade: A:diamond: 6:diamond: 3:club: 8:diamond:

      Hero shows A:spade: T:spade:
      (Pre 61%, Flop 82.3%, Turn 88.6%)

      UTG shows J:club: Q:heart:
      (Pre 39%, Flop 17.7%, Turn 11.4%)

      Hero wins $171

      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $4(BB) Replayer
      SB ($297)
      BB ($420)
      UTG ($78.25)
      Hero ($80)
      UTG+2 ($637)
      CO ($154)
      BTN ($177)

      Dealt to Hero K:diamond: K:club:

      UTG calls $4, Hero raises to $16, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, UTG calls $12

      FLOP ($38) 9:diamond: 7:heart: 5:club:

      UTG checks, Hero bets $21, UTG calls $21

      TURN ($80) 9:diamond: 7:heart: 5:club: 9:club:

      UTG bets $41.25 (AI), Hero calls $41.25

      RIVER ($162) 9:diamond: 7:heart: 5:club: 9:club: 8:spade:

      UTG shows 8:heart: K:heart:
      (Pre 12%, Flop 22.0%, Turn 9.1%)

      Hero shows K:diamond: K:club:
      (Pre 88%, Flop 78.0%, Turn 90.9%)

      Hero wins $159

      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $2(BB) Replayer
      SB ($94.30)
      BB ($36.35)
      UTG ($80)
      UTG+1 ($105)
      UTG+2 ($88)
      MP1 ($131)
      CO ($77)
      Hero ($44)

      Dealt to Hero A:diamond: K:diamond:

      fold, fold, fold, MP1 calls $2, fold, Hero raises to $9, SB calls $8, fold, MP1 calls $7

      FLOP ($29) Q:diamond: J:heart: 7:diamond:

      SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $35 (AI), SB calls $35, MP1 folds

      TURN ($99) Q:diamond: J:heart: 7:diamond: 3:diamond:

      RIVER ($99) Q:diamond: J:heart: 7:diamond: 3:diamond: Q:heart:

      SB shows 2:diamond: 8:diamond:
      (Pre 32%, Flop 15.5%, Turn 0.0%)

      Hero shows A:diamond: K:diamond:
      (Pre 68%, Flop 84.5%, Turn 100.0%)

      Hero wins $96

      :D

      Happy grinding

      T
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      LDO. You want them to call with crap. That's the whole point.
    • TheKaizen
      TheKaizen
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.05.2010 Posts: 22
      Steal the blinds.
      Sit behind 3 nits.

      Also take notes on the players, rocks fold even with equity majority.

      Take at least 1 note on every player per 50 hands.

      Learn how to leave a table for another when it's not compatible with you.
    • happyteerak
      happyteerak
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.08.2010 Posts: 65
      It isnt reall that they call with crap, because of course that is what you want!. It is losing repeatedly with the best hand. SSS Is all about playing with huge equity and committing yourself very quickly to the pot. My recent down turn though has to do with waiting for ever for a high equity hands and then getting called and beaten repeatedly. I think with QQ you always hope for calls but I lost with this hand 4 times in a row the other day! The day before that I lost 5 times in a row with AK. There is nothing to do differently about these things you just have to shrug and bear it. if you love to play poker you ahve to learn to live with these things, but that doesn't make it any easier.
    • Tampaloeres81
      Tampaloeres81
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.03.2009 Posts: 1,416
      Originally posted by happyteerak
      It is losing repeatedly with the best hand.
      This is only short term.


      SSS Is all about playing with huge equity
      This isnt true. Mostly you have 55% against the range of the other. SSS is really about small but positive edges and loooooooots of hands.

      T.
    • greyboy
      greyboy
      Black
      Joined: 19.07.2006 Posts: 3,052
      Originally posted by Tampaloeres81
      Originally posted by happyteerak
      It is losing repeatedly with the best hand.
      This is only short term.
      True ;)
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