KQ question (again!)

    • PokerHammer
      PokerHammer
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      Joined: 26.08.2007 Posts: 209
      I've just been having a look at the new SHC and I saw something I wasn't sure of regarding KQo/KQs.

      For KQo it says to raise in middle position if all players fold, but for KQs it says to fold in the same situation.

      Is that right?
  • 12 replies
    • ciRith
      ciRith
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      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      That is correct. But don't ask me why. ;)
    • PokerHammer
      PokerHammer
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      Joined: 26.08.2007 Posts: 209
      Originally posted by ciRith
      That is correct. But don't ask me why. ;)

      Come on ciRith, you're one of the experts! :)

      Do you think it's a mistake, or is there a logical reason for it?
    • narazadd
      narazadd
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      Joined: 18.09.2007 Posts: 66
      I may be completely wrong, but my understanding is that the only good attribute of KQo is that it can form top pair. However, and any Ace on the flop could counterfeit it. Therefore it seems good to raise in early position to encourage Ace-rags to fold.

      KQs, on the other hand, has potential for flush, and you want many players putting money in the pot to secure good pot odds. So if only one person has entered the pot, you may not have good odds to draw to a flush. So you play only if two or more players have limped.

      I hope this makes any sense!
    • PokerHammer
      PokerHammer
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      Joined: 26.08.2007 Posts: 209
      Originally posted by narazadd
      I may be completely wrong, but my understanding is that the only good attribute of KQo is that it can form top pair. However, and any Ace on the flop could counterfeit it. Therefore it seems good to raise in early position to encourage Ace-rags to fold.

      KQs, on the other hand, has potential for flush, and you want many players putting money in the pot to secure good pot odds. So if only one person has entered the pot, you may not have good odds to draw to a flush. So you play only if two or more players have limped.

      I hope this makes any sense!

      KQs is a better hand and can still win as top pair, it's not only drawing to a flush preflop. How can you fold a hand that good, and give up that much equity?
    • ciRith
      ciRith
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      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      I don't know it. ;)

      I guess it's too prevent beginners from difficult situation postflop with marginal hands.

      The old SHC was created when the micro limit were much looser so imping firstin was profitable. Today the tables are tighter so you often get raised or all fold if you limp firstin or you don't get enough limpers and it's again -EV. I think that are the 2 reasons.

      The 3rd may be that the new SHC is easier to understand which helps beginner again a lot. I think there is nno mistake if you stick to the old SHC but stop limping firstin to many hands.
    • PokerHammer
      PokerHammer
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      Joined: 26.08.2007 Posts: 209
      OK, that makes sense.

      I'm not using the SHC myself, but having looked at the new one I wasn't sure if that was an unnoticed mistake.

      I'm still not sure that beginners should be learning to fold KQs in middle position though! :P
    • wilm
      wilm
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      Joined: 13.07.2006 Posts: 1,583
      So this convert this knowledge to use:

      We can use the old SHC for loose games (+40% plyr/flp?)

      And the new SHC for tight (-40%) ?

      ciRith?
    • frzl
      frzl
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      Joined: 25.04.2006 Posts: 9,876
      i found a statement in the german forum. i will try to translate it ^^

      wishmaster:
      "KQs for sure is a bit of a problem when we are grouping the hands like in the shc. on the one hand we don´t want to fold this hand after a raise and a cold call (like we do it with mediocre hands). on the other hand we want to play KQs exactly like it´s said in the first 3 lines of the mediocre hands.
      i decied to choose this alternative (adding it to the group of speculative hands) because the hand does very well in multiway pots."

      so it´s just to make things easier for beginners. he also said that there will be a bronze article which will explain how to adjust the chart to special situations (e.g. AJs or 99 should be a fold if somebody raises from early position)
    • ciRith
      ciRith
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      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Originally posted by wilm
      So this convert this knowledge to use:

      We can use the old SHC for loose games (+40% plyr/flp?)

      And the new SHC for tight (-40%) ?

      ciRith?
      I think you can go with that. :)
    • PokerHammer
      PokerHammer
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      Joined: 26.08.2007 Posts: 209
      c/r gutshots and bottom pair, that always confuses them.

      Also, fold big flush draws on the flop, they only come in 35% of the time, just not worth the effort.

      ciRith, can I write some strategy articles?
    • PokerHammer
      PokerHammer
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      Joined: 26.08.2007 Posts: 209
      oops. my previous post was meant to be posted in radar's thread!
    • ciRith
      ciRith
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      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Originally posted by PokerHammer
      Also, fold big flush draws on the flop, they only come in 35% of the time, just not worth the effort.

      ciRith, can I write some strategy articles?
      Wtf? Drugs are bad you know? ;)

      EDIT: Ahh in the other thread it would make more sense. :D