Where did that AK shove thing come from???

    • blackops888
      blackops888
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.04.2010 Posts: 502
      This question must have been made a thousand times in this forum, but I'll ask again. :s_cool:

      Why should someone ever shove AK pre-flop? Unless I'm dealing with a maniac, I never see myself ahead in this business. Decent players on PokerStars NL5 are very rarely shoving with anything less than TT. Even 77 is a 55% favorite to win in this situation, so where is the +EV in all of this, unless we are dealing with a maniac? It just seems we are always slightly behind when shoving pre-flop with AK, praying to see one of our 6 outs!
  • 18 replies
    • conall88
      conall88
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      AK shove pre is a tourney play rather than a cash game play.

      justifications for it include:

      -player image
      -amount of cash in pot from blinds relative to your stack

      essentially its an aggressive semi-bluff, which could be considered a steal, but leaves you in enough shape to make it +EV when somebody calls you.

      the dead money/blinds justify shoving.
    • geoelt
      geoelt
      Platinum
      Joined: 13.10.2009 Posts: 2,541
      include fold equity and it is +ev ;) and as u said, even if someone calls u have most of the time a coinflip.

      cash games: i wouldn't open shove it for 100BB, but say u open to 4 BB, someone raises to 15BB or so, and u shove (this is not the best play in the world, i know, but just assume)
      do you think your opponent will call 99? some of them even lay down JJ or so which is obv. terrible once they did 3bet so much, but this is how guys play ;)

      never underestimate fold equity, a key point in the "+ev"ness of shoves
    • conall88
      conall88
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      lol if it was cash in that example i'd just call. I don't think its worth the risk :D
    • blackops888
      blackops888
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.04.2010 Posts: 502
      Yeah guys, thanks for the insights! :s_biggrin:

      I wrote this post mainly because of my recent pre-flop shoves with AK were not too successful, even when villain showed down 77, TT or JJ.

      Last night I had AK on BU, loose guy raised 4BB from MP, I reraised to 12BB and he shoved his +-100BB stack... I had to fold! Than I kept wondering whether what I did was right.
    • stevegold87
      stevegold87
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2009 Posts: 2,640
      Originally posted by blackops888
      Yeah guys, thanks for the insights! :s_biggrin:

      I wrote this post mainly because of my recent pre-flop shoves with AK were not too successful, even when villain showed down 77, TT or JJ.

      Last night I had AK on BU, loose guy raised 4BB from MP, I reraised to 12BB and he shoved his +-100BB stack... I had to fold! Than I kept wondering whether what I did was right.
      It depends on villain but that doesnt sound right. People on BB and SB gets in weird wars and I think shoving AK there would be profitable against most. (Unless in 900 hands he never 3 betted)
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      lol
    • Fongie
      Fongie
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 4,978
      I'm sure you can find threads like these if you search a bit.. but the short answer is: You don't make the money with AK when you are all in against someone, you make it when you 3bet, 4bet, or shove, and they fold.
    • conall88
      conall88
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      Originally posted by Fongie
      I'm sure you can find threads like these if you search a bit.. but the short answer is: You don't make the money with AK when you are all in against someone, you make it when you 3bet, 4bet, or shove, and they fold.
      +1
    • funktor
      funktor
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.08.2008 Posts: 922
      Actually you do on AK money, if you play agaist shortstack who are willing to call you allin with AJ, AQ, KQ, KJ, etc. ;)

      Funktor
    • nathanrenard
      nathanrenard
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.02.2009 Posts: 816
      Originally posted by conall88
      lol if it was cash in that example i'd just call. I don't think its worth the risk :D
      If it is good for a call, it's great for a raise. Especially if you're in position imho.
    • nitaidean
      nitaidean
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.05.2010 Posts: 60
      Ok here's a question: lets say I raise AK from the button or cutoff to 3BB, and get reraised from the BB to say, 12-14BB. Now, obviously players are making this resteal move a little loose because they give the position raiser little credit for a very good hand. But since I do have a quite premium hand, what is the best thing to do here?

      I think folding is -EV, but should I call, push, or just reraise to 35-40BB? I'm never exactly sure here.
    • JohnPhoenix
      JohnPhoenix
      Black
      Joined: 20.03.2007 Posts: 5,875
      Well, if the BB is not the total nit, you can easily 4bet it to 30,32 bb and call his allin, if he pushes.
    • Escobario
      Escobario
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2009 Posts: 183
      table dynamics
    • nitaidean
      nitaidean
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.05.2010 Posts: 60
      Yeah if his stats show him as non nitty, I agree with the playing back idea... but why just reraise to 30-35BB if you're prepared to call his all-in? I think once he's all-inned, you're probably behind, or a coin flip at best, because he's probably not doing that with AQ unless he's just terrible. But by that point you're a little pot committed....

      Then again, pushing all in when he's only reraised to 10-14BB sounds a little extreme
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Originally posted by nitaidean
      why just reraise to 30-35BB if you're prepared to call his all-in?
      You are reraising for value because you believe your hand is best, not as a bluff to generate huge fold equity. If you thought he would only call your shove with a better hand than yours would you still shove?
    • vonki
      vonki
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 6,091
      WRONG! Imo. You 3bet to 30bb to let him have the oppertunity to bluffshove all in should he feel inclined to. If you shove, you allow him the easy way out with a fold, with a raise to 30bb you allow him to make a mistake and think he can still get you off a hand and stuff his remaining money in the pot. =)
    • JohnPhoenix
      JohnPhoenix
      Black
      Joined: 20.03.2007 Posts: 5,875
      And you also want to do the 4 bet itself as bluff with weak hands. Now you also have to do this with the strong hands, other wise it is quite easy to play you.
    • nitaidean
      nitaidean
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.05.2010 Posts: 60
      All this is true, but I'm assuming we're playing NL25 and below, and I don't think you'll have too many players there shoving your 4bet without something great. Generally those stakes require ABC poker.

      Though you have a point, maybe the player is a real donk (though in that case you'd see that in his stats and of course never fold to his push) and he might try to repush your 4bet because he doesn't feel like losing this hand. And the other point that, he might just call the 4bet and then you play a big pot with AK in position, which is definitely +EV, also makes sense.