[NL2-NL10] Jacks played bad

    • BigAl123456
      BigAl123456
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2010 Posts: 4,080
      PartyGaming - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      UTG+1: $2.17
      MP: $2.12
      MP+1: $1.99
      Hero (CO): $2.01
      BTN: $2.00
      SB: $1.17
      BB: $3.22
      UTG: $2.13

      SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

      Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has J:diamond: J:spade:

      fold, fold, fold, MP+1 raises to $0.08, Hero raises to $0.24, fold, fold, fold, MP+1 calls $0.16

      Flop: ($0.51, 2 players) 3:club: A:diamond: 5:spade:
      MP+1 checks, Hero bets $0.24, MP+1 calls $0.24

      Turn: ($0.99, 2 players) 7:spade:
      MP+1 checks, Hero checks

      River: ($0.99, 2 players) 3:diamond:
      MP+1 bets $0.71, Hero calls $0.71

      MP+1 shows K:spade: A:spade: (Two Pair, Aces and Threes)
      Hero mucks J:diamond: J:spade: (Two Pair, Jacks and Threes)
      MP+1 wins $2.29

      Dont know why I called. They realy traped me with the check calling and the big river bet.
  • 9 replies
    • yeahyoung0312
      yeahyoung0312
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      I've been in this situation several times. You 3bet and expect a fold or a 4bet (to which you could probably fold) but villain flats OOP. And pot's inflated.

      Then here came the A high flop and villain checked to you. You tried to cbet and to represent an A.

      I would bet more here, say 2/3 instead of 1/2 of the pot, for information. With a 1/2 pot bet called you were still not sure where you were. At the same time it gave enough information to the villain about your hand.

      With a 2/3 pot bet called you could be pretty sure you were behind.

      Villain's check calling on the flop was alright. You had the initiative therefore he checked back to you to induce a cbet. It's a good play cause if he bet out on flop then you would call but definitely fold river, right?

      After your cbet got called river was an easy fold.
    • BigAl123456
      BigAl123456
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2010 Posts: 4,080
      Villain's check calling on the flop was alright. You had the initiative therefore he checked back to you to induce a cbet. It's a good play cause if he bet out on flop then you would call but definitely fold river, right?


      Exactly right if he had bet the flop I would of called and folded on the turn or river.

      In the end I just played the hand realy bad.
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      Hi,

      [quote]Originally posted by yeahyoung0312
      [B]You 3bet and expect a fold or a 4bet (to which you could probably fold)[/B[/quote]That's just wrong really. If you're 3-betting JJ expecting people to never just call and planning on folding to a 4-bet, there is no value to 3-betting you're just turning JJ into a bluff and you're way better off calling with it and 3-betting with complete garbage hands as a bluff.

      As played I don't hate c-betting on that board but really, most people will still call one bet with KK-QQ even on A-high boards because "damn why is there an A on the flop when I have QQ/KK, again!" or something along those lines. And people with Ax are never ever folding. As for worse hands, well with TT- it's a lot easier to fold to a c-bet on A53 than with QQ/KK so most likely they won't call you. So basically you're betting with no hope of folding out better hands and almost no hope of getting called by worse hands, meaning you're betting to take down the pot right here instead of playing it out further, which usually isn't a good idea unless you're opponent is damn near impredictable or balanced, which regs at microstakes usually aren't. I'd just check it back myself and expect him to tell me exactly what he has by his turn action.

      As played river is an obvious fold, if villain is bluffing he would have had to float the flop with a gutshot after calling the 3-bet out of position with trash preflop, or to be turning something like a suspicion pocket pair into a big river bluff. That's just not happen, you're smoked way too often to call that.


      Hope it helps.
    • yeahyoung0312
      yeahyoung0312
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      Originally posted by MaestroOfZerg

      That's just wrong really. If you're 3-betting JJ expecting people to never just call and planning on folding to a 4-bet, there is no value to 3-betting you're just turning JJ into a bluff and you're way better off calling with it and 3-betting with complete garbage hands as a bluff.[/B
      I see. That clarifies a lot about JJ. After running the equilator I now see that JJ has good equity on the flop against a tight range but the equity drops all the way to the river. So do you mean that when we 3-bet with JJ, we hope to bet opponents out of a dry flop with holdings like smaller pocket pairs or AK?
    • yeahyoung0312
      yeahyoung0312
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      Originally posted by MaestroOfZerg

      I'd just check it back myself and expect him to tell me exactly what he has by his turn action.[/B
      How do we know exactly what villain has from the turn action? Do you mean any bet usually means Ax and QQ/KK will never bet out on a A high board, for the same reason that JJ shall not bet out? If flop goes ch/ch and villain bet 1/2 pot on the turn, do we call once or do we fold?

      I agree that preflop actions narrowed the range to what you mentioned. But wouldn't it better to bet out on the flop for fairly accurate information instead of just play passively and never know what opponent actually had?
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      Hi,

      Originally posted by yeahyoung0312
      Originally posted by MaestroOfZerg

      That's just wrong really. If you're 3-betting JJ expecting people to never just call and planning on folding to a 4-bet, there is no value to 3-betting you're just turning JJ into a bluff and you're way better off calling with it and 3-betting with complete garbage hands as a bluff.[/B
      I see. That clarifies a lot about JJ. After running the equilator I now see that JJ has good equity on the flop against a tight range but the equity drops all the way to the river. So do you mean that when we 3-bet with JJ, we hope to bet opponents out of a dry flop with holdings like smaller pocket pairs or AK?
      When you 3-bet JJ it's because you expect your opponent to call with enough worse hands to make the play profitable. He can call with lower pairs that he'll either call bets with postflop or fold depending on how lucky we get with the board, he can call with stuff like broadway hands that will whiff the flop 2/3 of the time so again we just capitalize on dead money, he can call with pretty speculative stuff like 98s and no be able to fold TPNK to 3-barrel, he can make draws with those hands as well that will not get there most of the time so again as long as we play correctly we just make money.

      If your opponent isn't loose enough to call with stuff like these (read: he's a decent reg and he won't call out of position with much of anything), you just put yourself in a position where you have nothing to gain by 3-betting and worse, you'll get 4-bet off a hand that you could play for set value / against whiffed AQ/AK hands profitably postflop in position.


      Hope it helps.
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      Hi,

      Originally posted by yeahyoung0312
      Originally posted by MaestroOfZerg

      I'd just check it back myself and expect him to tell me exactly what he has by his turn action.[/B
      How do we know exactly what villain has from the turn action? Do you mean any bet usually means Ax and QQ/KK will never bet out on a A high board, for the same reason that JJ shall not bet out? If flop goes ch/ch and villain bet 1/2 pot on the turn, do we call once or do we fold?

      I agree that preflop actions narrowed the range to what you mentioned. But wouldn't it better to bet out on the flop for fairly accurate information instead of just play passively and never know what opponent actually had?
      Betting for information and other concepts of "I want to know what villain has" are fairly hard bad habits to shake off. It's understandable when starting out and even beyond to get curious sometimes just to make sure everybody isn't playing totally different than you thought. But overall it doesn't really matter what villain actually had this time around as long as you assessment of his range is fairly accurate.

      I do not need to see the hand of a nit to know he's leading out with exactly Ax+ on the turn the vast majority of the time if I check behind on the flop. Nor do I need to see the hand of a complete maniac to know that no matter how much Ax hands he called with preflop, he still has loads more of complete airball hands that he'll feel obligated to bluff with when I check behind the flop.

      Less extreme but still very true, most regs at microstakes are way more likely to bet into you for value than they are to try and bluff you, simply because everybody calls too much at microstakes so bluffing isn't nearly as profitable as you'd think.

      Blurrier still but you have to base your play on something, the average microstakes player is some mix-up between lots of loose passive players that can't valuebet thin nor bluff much and regs that don't bluff much and don't valuebet thin enough either. So chances are when a guy who looks okay so far leads into you on the turn, he's not bluffing more often than not and since he sucks at valuebetting, he has better than JJ.


      Hope it helps.
    • yeahyoung0312
      yeahyoung0312
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      Originally posted by MaestroOfZerg

      the average microstakes player is some mix-up between lots of loose passive players that can't valuebet thin nor bluff much and regs that don't bluff much and don't valuebet thin enough either.[/B
      Absolutely masterful summary of the player types.
    • BigAl123456
      BigAl123456
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2010 Posts: 4,080
      Thanks for the tips guys.

      Speaking of value betting I think I have trouble in value betting ill try and post some examples in the forum later.