Follow Your Instincts?

    • BCShad0w
      BCShad0w
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      Joined: 07.06.2010 Posts: 78
      I have been skim reading a few books and their strats, as well as on the forums.

      Quite recently, all in freerolls, I'll call even when I'm telling myself not to, just to see if what Im calling is correct [what I think my opponent has in his hand]... I'm pretty sharp at the moment but technically, some of these calls go again Pot Odds.

      I'm just wondering that sometimes, do you keep straight and follow pot odds, or sometimes drift to what your instincts tell you? I've seen many players shove and one player call, so I'll fold JJ or TT to see players turn over QQ/KK/AK... I've also seen it the over way around, where I'll call, to see them turn over rags. I like to think this is my instinct kicking me but other times, just the situation feels uneasy.

      Im just infighting with myself whether to disregard my instincts, as sometimes, I wont lie, I get it wrong, or to stick with them and disregard Pot Odds when I feel strongly? [Pot Odds may not even come into consideration if it's a shove pre-flop].

      /Chez
  • 16 replies
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      What is pot odds?
    • BCShad0w
      BCShad0w
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      Joined: 07.06.2010 Posts: 78
      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
      What is pot odds?
      You sound like the semi pro I'm living with... He generally disregards the math and see's it a mind game pretty much. Thats not to say he sometimes thinks about the maths, but his strong point is playing like a jackass and pushing people around.

      I guess when you get the respect from the table or not, someones rarely going to play at you without hitting a hand to risk on.

      I'm guessing you're an instinctive player Night?
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      • 14.08.2010, 15:14
      • This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by NightFrostaSS: 14.08.2010 15:15.
      Obv I was exaggerating (cool word, found it in dictionary today!) by pretending not to understand what pot odds means but yes, I'm faaaar from being a math based player. But math is good, and can only help your game.
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
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      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      Originally posted by BCShad0w
      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
      What is pot odds?
      You sound like the semi pro I'm living with... He generally disregards the math and see's it a mind game pretty much. Thats not to say he sometimes thinks about the maths, but his strong point is playing like a jackass and pushing people around.

      I guess when you get the respect from the table or not, someones rarely going to play at you without hitting a hand to risk on.

      I'm guessing you're an instinctive player Night?
      Hello!

      He's just a troll.

      Of course folliwing instincts might be good in some situations when you're trying to exploit the oponent, but I wouldn't call it instincts, more like getting into their head etc. Calling a draw when the pot odds are too low to call profitably is pretty much a way of bleeding money since you will lose money like that in the long run.

      To answer your question: Most of poker is maths. Think in hand ranges (guessing which hand your oponent hand is wrong, you need to guess what handrange he might be on, compare your equity to the range and then if you have enough equity according to the pot odds make the call... If you don't, you're playing -EV = losing money in the long run). Of course there are different types of calculations, when you bet for value, for fold equity, etc... Everything is very well explained in our articles, coachings and videos, if you have any further questions regarding some specific hands, feel free to use our free Hand evaluation services.

      Best regards,

      Primzi
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
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      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
      Obv I was exaggerating (cool word, found it in dictionary today!) by pretending not to understand what pot odds means but yes, I'm faaaar from being a math based player. But math is good, and can only help your game.
      Did you just give useful advice? :s_o:
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Originally posted by Primzi
      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
      Obv I was exaggerating (cool word, found it in dictionary today!) by pretending not to understand what pot odds means but yes, I'm faaaar from being a math based player. But math is good, and can only help your game.
      Did you just give useful advice? :s_o:
      Useful? prolly not. honest? yea
    • BCShad0w
      BCShad0w
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.06.2010 Posts: 78
      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
      Obv I was exaggerating (cool word, found it in dictionary today!) by pretending not to understand what pot odds means but yes, I'm faaaar from being a math based player. But math is good, and can only help your game.
      I just need to plug the leak of wanting to prove my instincts right, and calling to see... A very fishy action, however it's always been in freerolls, and the mroe I prove to myself, the less I have to call due to my confidence in my guess.

      I'm glad I never done this in cash games, as I'd lose a tonne of cash... I also dislike laying down, but thats apart of my games thats getting better and starting to figure it isn't always a sign of weakness [I've fortunately been able to play like Im about to fold, but shove with a hand and generally get called due to belief Im bluffing, because I let a few seconds go down on my clock!]

      You play on FTP maybe? A few of the people Ive played with suggest your'll more than likely get beaten by a river if you shove in before the 5th street comes down. Lol.

      /C
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
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      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
      Originally posted by Primzi
      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
      Obv I was exaggerating (cool word, found it in dictionary today!) by pretending not to understand what pot odds means but yes, I'm faaaar from being a math based player. But math is good, and can only help your game.
      Did you just give useful advice? :s_o:
      Useful? prolly not. honest? yea
      I sense a useful flavour. Oh god, they've got you too... No, no no! Don't let yourself get abducted by the normal people!
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      Originally posted by BCShad0w
      You play on FTP maybe? A few of the people Ive played with suggest your'll more than likely get beaten by a river if you shove in before the 5th street comes down. Lol.

      /C
      Ssh, that's a well kept secret. Or at least it used to be :( . Who told you that, we need to kill him now :f_frown:
    • BCShad0w
      BCShad0w
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.06.2010 Posts: 78
      Originally posted by Primzi
      Originally posted by BCShad0w
      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
      What is pot odds?
      You sound like the semi pro I'm living with... He generally disregards the math and see's it a mind game pretty much. Thats not to say he sometimes thinks about the maths, but his strong point is playing like a jackass and pushing people around.

      I guess when you get the respect from the table or not, someones rarely going to play at you without hitting a hand to risk on.

      I'm guessing you're an instinctive player Night?
      Hello!

      He's just a troll.

      Of course folliwing instincts might be good in some situations when you're trying to exploit the oponent, but I wouldn't call it instincts, more like getting into their head etc. Calling a draw when the pot odds are too low to call profitably is pretty much a way of bleeding money since you will lose money like that in the long run.

      To answer your question: Most of poker is maths. Think in hand ranges (guessing which hand your oponent hand is wrong, you need to guess what handrange he might be on, compare your equity to the range and then if you have enough equity according to the pot odds make the call... If you don't, you're playing -EV = losing money in the long run). Of course there are different types of calculations, when you bet for value, for fold equity, etc... Everything is very well explained in our articles, coachings and videos, if you have any further questions regarding some specific hands, feel free to use our free Hand evaluation services.

      Best regards,

      Primzi
      Equity.... Such an ugly word. An ugly concept too, haha... I've been able to read alot of stuff and put it into practise and feel comfortable understanding the reasons why I'm doing something.

      As for Equity, I've read it over and over, and it's just not a concept I'm able to grasp even now at the moment. I've read alot about equity on this forum...It just doesnt seem to want to become simple in my mind set!

      Any further help would be greatly appreicated! I understand it's an equation and its probably something that cannot be done on the spot such as pot odds/implied odds?

      /C
    • BCShad0w
      BCShad0w
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.06.2010 Posts: 78
      Originally posted by Primzi
      Originally posted by BCShad0w
      You play on FTP maybe? A few of the people Ive played with suggest your'll more than likely get beaten by a river if you shove in before the 5th street comes down. Lol.

      /C
      Ssh, that's a well kept secret. Or at least it used to be :( . Who told you that, we need to kill him now :f_frown:
      Haha. I've seen enough of it for myself... Burnt a few, been burnt by many more =P. Thats pretty much the story of the past few weeks...Comfortable, until I see 5th street. I have a very hard time laying down if theres a bet I feel uncomfortable with... Ywt its part fo my games thats getting eaiser to do =].

      As I always say when I lose: There will always be another chance. [variance or bad play normally bites that idea on the ass!]

      /C
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Originally posted by BCShad0w

      I just need to plug the leak of wanting to prove my instincts right, and calling to see... A very fishy action, however it's always been in freerolls, and the mroe I prove to myself, the less I have to call due to my confidence in my guess.
      Confidence will build over time, especially when not trusting your own instinct will start costing you money. But with that said, the so called "insinct" isn't some mystical beast or anything but more like subconscious mind noticing patterns of other players that conscious mind does not pay full attention to and so after making ridiculous calls or folds if asked/or while reviewing the session you still should be able to fully explain the reason for such play and not just say "i felt like folding" or smth like that. Not sure if I expressed myself clearly enough here.


      [I've fortunately been able to play like Im about to fold, but shove with a hand and generally get called due to belief Im bluffing, because I let a few seconds go down on my clock!]
      Lol, time down/raise line is almost always monster at micros.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Originally posted by Primzi
      Originally posted by BCShad0w
      You play on FTP maybe? A few of the people Ive played with suggest your'll more than likely get beaten by a river if you shove in before the 5th street comes down. Lol.

      /C
      Ssh, that's a well kept secret. Or at least it used to be :( . Who told you that, we need to kill him now :f_frown:
      He's just a troll.
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      Hello again!

      Regarding the equity, etc. Here is the equation for the expected value (not the same as equity!) or in short, EV:

      EV = (possible winnings) * (probability of winning) - (possible losses) * (probability of losing)

      The equity here is the "probability of winning". It is kind of complex, but there are some great articles about it in the strategy section (silver status I believe), there everything is nicely explained.

      Best regards,

      Primzi
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
      Originally posted by Primzi
      Originally posted by BCShad0w
      You play on FTP maybe? A few of the people Ive played with suggest your'll more than likely get beaten by a river if you shove in before the 5th street comes down. Lol.

      /C
      Ssh, that's a well kept secret. Or at least it used to be :( . Who told you that, we need to kill him now :f_frown:
      He's just a troll.
      touché
    • BCShad0w
      BCShad0w
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.06.2010 Posts: 78
      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
      Originally posted by BCShad0w

      I just need to plug the leak of wanting to prove my instincts right, and calling to see... A very fishy action, however it's always been in freerolls, and the mroe I prove to myself, the less I have to call due to my confidence in my guess.
      Confidence will build over time, especially when not trusting your own instinct will start costing you money. But with that said, the so called "insinct" isn't some mystical beast or anything but more like subconscious mind noticing patterns of other players that conscious mind does not pay full attention to and so after making ridiculous calls or folds if asked/or while reviewing the session you still should be able to fully explain the reason for such play and not just say "i felt like folding" or smth like that. Not sure if I expressed myself clearly enough here.


      [I've fortunately been able to play like Im about to fold, but shove with a hand and generally get called due to belief Im bluffing, because I let a few seconds go down on my clock!]
      Lol, time down/raise line is almost always monster at micros.
      You explained perfectly there fella =].

      It's all good folding due to instinct...But if you can't pick up these patterns and explaining clear understanding why I folded or raised, I'm playing a blind, or at least, and uneducated game... I guess all this comes with practise at the tables =].

      /C