[NL2-NL10] NL25 - Getting floated with AK OOP

    • Kknight
      Kknight
      Global
      Joined: 30.04.2007 Posts: 374
      No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed)

      Hero ($5)
      MP1 ($20.35)
      MP2 ($13.95)
      CO ($57.50)
      Button ($24.90)
      SB ($25.65)
      BB ($25.60)

      Preflop: Hero is UTG with K:diamond: , A:heart: .
      [color:#CC3333]Hero raises to $1[/color], [color:#666666]3 folds[/color], Button calls $1, [color:#666666]2 folds[/color].

      Flop: ($2.35) Q:club: , 2:club: , 8:club: [color:#0000FF](2 players)[/color]
      [color:#CC3333]Hero bets $1.5[/color], Button calls $1.50.

      Turn: ($5.35) 7:heart: [color:#0000FF](2 players)[/color]
      Hero checks, [color:#CC3333]Button bets $2.5[/color], Hero folds.

      Final Pot: $5.35

      Ugly board and OOP. Should I have just check/folded the flop? Or is that too weak? I think a c-bet often gets a fold here...but I don't like the fact that I'm OOP.

      Thanks,
      Kknight
  • 12 replies
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Ugly board. I would probably check/fold. But now I have stats and maybe I would bet/fold by some opponents
    • Berliner1982
      Berliner1982
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.07.2006 Posts: 5,644
      It would be ok to give up your hand here on the flop OOP with no club and without stats. When you will have PT/PA you should bet against opponents who fold very often against a C-Bet.
    • Eclipt
      Eclipt
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.05.2007 Posts: 755
      Higher cb ($1.70-$1.90). The rest is OK.
    • Kknight
      Kknight
      Global
      Joined: 30.04.2007 Posts: 374
      Hi Eclipt,

      $1.50 is almost exactly 2/3 pot. Why would I bet 3/4 ($1.70) or 4/5 ($1.90) pot when I'm OOP with trash? I've found that probably at least 70-80% of the time, I'll get my opponent to fold on a monotone board with just about any size c-bet...there's no reason to risk more than 2/3 here if I risk anything at all.

      Thanks,
      Kknight
    • Eclipt
      Eclipt
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.05.2007 Posts: 755
      Oh, I didn`t know you have read your opponent so well. If what you say is true, then your play was perfect.

      Against unknown opponents I base my play on aggresion. I prefer to bet more, to fool him that I have high pocket, or nut-draw. When you bet low, he might think you have non-nut draw, or even figure out that you have nothing and you are c-beting and you will get called (you don`t want it, do you? :) ).
    • Berliner1982
      Berliner1982
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.07.2006 Posts: 5,644
      You conti-bet always the same amount of the pot. Its always 2/3 of the Pot, weather you hit the Flop or not. So when you make a C-Bet it either 2/3 of the Pot. That way your opponent can not exploit if you might have a hand or not.
      And on these limit a Flushdraw will call 2/3 Pot as well as a 3/4 Potbet.
    • Kknight
      Kknight
      Global
      Joined: 30.04.2007 Posts: 374
      Hi Eclipt,

      Don't misunderstand me...I didn't have a read on this particular opponent...I'm just saying that in general at this level, a monotone board is scary enough that unless they've got a made flush or a strong flush draw, they'll fold. They definitely fold often enough to make a c-bet worthwhile in almost every case. In this case though, I was OOP, which is why I questioned whether I should c-bet or not.

      Thanks,
      Kknight
    • Eclipt
      Eclipt
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.05.2007 Posts: 755
      Yep, I agree with both of you.
      But

      Berliner1982:
      Isn`t it better to give opponent false information, than not giving info at all?
      If you bet 2/3 pot as c-bet, and potsize when you have hand, opponents after some time will start to read you and act according to size of your bet. And this is the right time to change strategy and switch size of bets.
      When you have strong made hand, you bet 2/3 of the pot and opponents call thinking you are c-beting.
      And when you c-bet potsize, they will fold thinking you have made hand.
      What do you think about such strategy?

      I know this will not work when playing against amateurs, and applies rather to BSS, than SSS :P

      KKnight:
      It is all right, but take care not to give opponents right odds to your opponent.
      You make c-bet regardless of position in heads-up if you were agressor preflop
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      I think Berliner is suggesting that 2/3 is the right size, whether you have hit the flop, or are just making a cbet. That way, you are entirely unreadable, because you could have anything.
    • Berliner1982
      Berliner1982
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.07.2006 Posts: 5,644
      When I decide to bet on the Flop I always make a bet of 2/3 of the pot, no matter if I just C-Bet with nothing or a made hand. It makes no difference, since my opponent will never know if I´m betting now with a made hand and this way betting for Value or if I have nothing. Would I act otherwise he would be able to get a read on me over the time, and thats something we want to avoid.
    • patrick10
      patrick10
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.10.2007 Posts: 10
      Originally posted by Berliner1982
      You conti-bet always the same amount of the pot. Its always 2/3 of the Pot, weather you hit the Flop or not. So when you make a C-Bet it either 2/3 of the Pot. That way your opponent can not exploit if you might have a hand or not.
      And on these limit a Flushdraw will call 2/3 Pot as well as a 3/4 Potbet.
      while i think standardising c-bet amounts is important, at these low limits it is not necessarily the best move. villain tends to operate on 1st level- ie. what is MY hand.

      they will not really be floating dangerous flops when a shorstacker c bets. i could not think of a worse situation in fact. The problem with this hand is whether or not to make a continuation bet, given the hero will have comitted 40-45% of his stack with just a 1/2 pot C bet.


      Of utmost importance here is the fact that hero is shortstacked. (this is mainly in reply to other poster who recommended a larger c-bet amount...) What use is there of betting more, on a flop such as this?

      i think the answer can be summed up as this:

      1) you lose too much value if you never bet C-bet monotone flops

      -> so you were correct in c betting

      2) the Effect of the c-bet on this flop would be effectively the same within a range of 40%- 66% ( $0.95- $1.55)

      -> you could have achieved very much the same effect with a $0.60 smaller C-bet. This is important, because at the low levels, you may as well take advantage of easy situations liek this where you can really win the most and lose the least. Not only will this save you money if villain raises and you fold, the C-bet itself needs to work less often to be +EV. WHILE you may argue theoretically that the likelihood of vilalin folding decreases with the amount, in certain situations (such as this i believe) this is not necessarily true [within reason -eg. dont c bet $.50]

      3) we HAVE to fold if raised

      -> i think this is accepted
    • patrick10
      patrick10
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.10.2007 Posts: 10
      ps. as played, the turn c/f is fine.

      if it wasnt clear from the above post, the only thing i think you could do differently is actually bet less on the flop in the range of $.95 - $1.15, saving you up to 60c on the hand, leaving you with 3.05 still.

      as for always c-betting 2/3 i think that is wasted at limits this low and should not apply when playing such a small stack. with even just 1 more caller PF or a larger PF raise, a 2/3 pot C-bet would basically commit Hero to push or fold the flop which imo is bad.