[NL2-NL10] NL 10 Another QQ overpair

    • yeahyoung0312
      yeahyoung0312
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.05/$0.1 No-Limit Hold'em (5 handed)

      Known players:
      BB:
      $11.47
      MP3:
      $18.17
      CO:
      $16.04
      BU (Hero):
      $13.90
      SB:
      $5.54


      Preflop: Hero is BU with Q, Q.
      2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, SB folds, BB raises to $0.92, Hero raises to $2.30, BB calls $1.38.

      Flop: ($4.65) 2, 7, 8 (2 players)
      BB checks, Hero bets $3.00, BB raises to $9.17, Hero calls $6.17.

      Turn: ($22.99) 9 (2 players)


      River: ($22.99) 7 (2 players)


      Final Pot: $22.99.

      Go here for 3 other overpair situation I posted:

      NL10 How to get a way with a big overpair??

      I know a lot of people would say I have to get in, given the odds, in order to avoid being bluffed out of the pot easily. But I think in NL10 players almost never bluff with their stack. I don't even see too many people semi-bluffing with even monster draws.

      Retrospectively maybe I should flat the 3bet IP instead of going with the 4bet. When villain flat my 4bet OOP I put him on AK and QQ+.

      On the flop when I was ch-raised I really wanted to fold as AK is very unlikely here, therefore villain either had AA or KK or QQ.
  • 14 replies
    • johnbeattie85
      johnbeattie85
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.09.2008 Posts: 716
      You can't fold flop. I would prob just flat pre, but 4b is fine as well.
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Easy fold on the flop. I don't see 99, TT, or JJ shoving here so everything that would already beats you.

      (Against a manic type I call it for stacks all day, but that is high variance. Even maniacs flop sets and 2-pair.)
    • yeahyoung0312
      yeahyoung0312
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      Originally posted by tokyoaces
      Easy fold on the flop. I don't see 99, TT, or JJ shoving here so everything that would already beats you.

      (Against a manic type I call it for stacks all day, but that is high variance. Even maniacs flop sets and 2-pair.)
      I see.

      Now I start to develop an appropriate feeling for NL10, that any aggressiveness needs to be treated seriously, especially those for stack. Many fishes bluff for stack preflop but almost nobody bluff for stack postflop in NL10.
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Originally posted by yeahyoung0312
      Many fishes bluff for stack preflop but almost nobody bluff for stack postflop in NL10.
      I lost tons and tons of money learning that!

      You do get maniacs at these tables of course. Against them none of my advice applies!
    • johnbeattie85
      johnbeattie85
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.09.2008 Posts: 716
      Originally posted by tokyoaces
      Easy fold on the flop. I don't see 99, TT, or JJ shoving here so everything that would already beats you.

      (Against a manic type I call it for stacks all day, but that is high variance. Even maniacs flop sets and 2-pair.)
      I really don't understand how you can consider folding, let alone saying easy fold. We are in a 4bet pot with what is very likely the best overpair, and have to call $6 into a $22 pot.
    • yeahyoung0312
      yeahyoung0312
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      Originally posted by johnbeattie85

      I really don't understand how you can consider folding, let alone saying easy fold. We are in a 4bet pot with what is very likely the best overpair, and have to call $6 into a $22 pot.
      You are right about the pot being too large and an overpair just looks like "have" to call. I totally give villain credit for building up the pot.

      But in this specific context I completely felt I was beat. Becaue 1) I 4-bet preflop and villain flat. And 2) villain check raise me AI on a dry flop. Which could only mean AA, KK, or QQ.

      I put myself on a 2 outer, which did not justify a 6:22 call. But I felt like I "had" to call so I called only to see my feeling confirmed.
    • yeahyoung0312
      yeahyoung0312
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      Originally posted by tokyoaces

      You do get maniacs at these tables of course. Against them none of my advice applies!
      You know what, profits from the maniacs were not even CLOSE to the losses I had by treating anyone who shows aggressiveness as a maniac.

      As you mentioned, maniac = profit but also = variance. And misjudged aggressiveness = no variance but pure loss.
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Originally posted by johnbeattie85
      I really don't understand how you can consider folding, let alone saying easy fold. We are in a 4bet pot with what is very likely the best overpair, and have to call $6 into a $22 pot.
      It's calling $6 into a $17 pot and we have 46% equity at the absolute best. Not only do we not have anything close to the best overpair, but the most likely holdings are Aces or Kings based on the preflop action and all signs point to us being a 9:1 dog here. 99, TT, JJ, QQ check-raise here almost never.
    • johnbeattie85
      johnbeattie85
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.09.2008 Posts: 716
      We need 26% equity to call once he shoves. Given the low SPR BB has to stack off with any pair since a large enough part of our range is busted overcards. You really need to do a lot of soul reading to fold here - and changes are if fold is correct it's a spot where we should def not be 4betting pre.
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
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      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Edit: Removed my math fail.
    • johnbeattie85
      johnbeattie85
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      Joined: 11.09.2008 Posts: 716
      Calling approx $6 into $17 pot = 1:2.8.

      1 / (1+2.8) = .26

      Or alternatively you can do 6 / 23 = .26
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      Originally posted by johnbeattie85
      Calling approx $6 into $17 pot = 1:2.8.
      I personally believe we only have about 8% equity in this pot, and the guy who posted the hand mentioned he felt it was only AA, KK, or QQ (12% equity), but it seems like you think we have a lot more. It's a marginal call at best.

      We disagree, but I hope I've at least explained why. Also, in my original reply I mentioned I thought the villain had a set, but that was just a misread of the hand. :f_confused: I wasn't properly accounting for the preflop action.
    • johnbeattie85
      johnbeattie85
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.09.2008 Posts: 716
      Well it obviously depends on preflop range. I wouldn't 4bet here unless I assumed villian would call/shove with worse hands. If this is the case our equity is too good to fold the flop since he will also have worse pairs. This is possibly why I am more eager to stack off. If villian is actually a super nit and we made a mistake preflop, I would be ok taking a cautious approach.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      once you 4-bet you can´t really get away there QQ.
      So you played your hand very standard and if player isn´t super nit I think you´re getting there all-in quite good
      So I´m happy to b/c flop