Pulling the trigger - hand of the day

    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,295
      Just figured I'd post this hand, made me feel a little special for all of 5 minutes. You guys will probably now believe I am a hyper-donk. :f_cool: :f_cool:

      CO is playing 92/36 (aka 100% of hands while sometimes checking back BB). His aggression frequency is 57% and cbet flop is 50%. This is only a 39 hand sample but made a few things apparent to me. From the showdown hands I saw, I don't believe this guy is a bad player.....he is evidently challenging himself to play 100% of preflop hands, but his postflop game seemed solid (and aggressive). For the record, I'd never make this play against an utter donk, but my guess was this guy would be good enough to fold anything up to 2pair on the river. (i.e maybe he would assume that as a humble 25nl player my raise flop, barrel turn/river range is heavily unbalanced towards a set or better)


      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.1/$0.25 No-Limit Hold'em (6 handed)

      Known players:
      MP3:
      $25.00
      CO:
      $21.43
      BU (Hero):
      $24.90
      SB:
      $37.67
      BB:
      $35.43
      MP2:
      $27.05


      Preflop: Hero is BU with 7, 8.
      2 folds, CO raises to $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, 2 folds, BB folds.

      Flop: ($1.35) 2, 3, J (2 players)
      CO bets $1.29, Hero raises to $2.75, CO calls $1.46.

      Turn: ($6.85) T (2 players)
      CO checks, Hero bets $4.50, CO calls $4.50.

      River: ($15.85) K (2 players)
      CO checks, Hero raises to $17.15(All-In), CO folds, Hero gets uncalled bet back.

      Final Pot: $15.85.

      +EV? Utter spew? :f_cool:
      You decide.

      w34z3l

      EDIT - I also did a very bad thing and showed the guy my hole cards. :D

      Another thing, he thought for quite a while before folding which leads me to believe he did in fact have showdown value and not a busted draw.
  • 12 replies
    • yeahyoung0312
      yeahyoung0312
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      IMO you don't need the push to bluff villain out of the hand. 1/2 pot is enough.

      If villain's folding he's folding, if villain had something and called you would loose your full stack there.

      Sklansky said, bluff just the right amount to get the job done, no more no less.
    • conall88
      conall88
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      why ad bluffing into your game when you can get him to call with the worst hand?

      figure out how he plays top pair and 2nd pair etc, and then just dominate him. easy game.
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,295
      Originally posted by yeahyoung0312

      If villain's folding he's folding,.
      Not so sure, because I also want to fold out hands like QK,K3,T3 of hearts that hit top pair or kings/tens up on the river. Don't want him to feel priced into calling with top pair or two pair. I take your point about saving money on a bluff, but I'd still be inclined to bet almost pot sized because there /are/ some made hands in his range that I want him to fold on top of the busted draws. (also the shove is large than it appears since villain doesn't have a full stack)
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,295
      Originally posted by conall88
      why ad bluffing into your game when you can get him to call with the worst hand?
      Easier said than done. This guy isn't a total idiot, he just happens to be a smarter player trying out a 100%vpip strategy. Besides, I play for fun, not just to make money :f_cool: Got try out some more advanced moves at some point :f_cool:

      w34z3l
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      I have no idea about NL but still think that's a fold preflop... Perhaps TwiceT would 3bet that from CO :D .
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,295
      Originally posted by Primzi
      I have no idea about NL but still think that's a fold preflop... Perhaps TwiceT would 3bet that from CO :D .
      Oh, you can argue it's a fold easily. I just took the higher variance route in this instance. In the small sample size of hands I'd played against this guy he'd already bet two rivers big in what I assumed to be bluffs. While 78o is a marginal hand it does have some potential, and the idea this guy might be bluffy adds a little to my implied odds.
      Also, the problem with playing value hands such as AK is, it's hard to call with top pair when he bluffs the river big (reverse implieds etc aswell as the awkward SPR for TPTK that 100BB stacks create). Conall 88 suggested I should just play for value. That is how I'd exploit donks with a weak range; by calling and value betting with made hands. Against a stronger player with an extremely weak range, the best exploitative countermeasure seems to be either attacking his range with bluffs or nut-peddling and letting him bluff. And this guy is good enough to get away from me when I have the a strong hand (as seen by the river fold in this hand ). Hence I chose to play 78o in this instance. The value of the hand is not necessarily even important.

      w34z3l
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      I was implying that call is probably the worst decision here - you should either fold or 3bet to isolate the guy and take the initiative. Would probably be better against this guy. Being in a 3-way pot with 87o without initiative for example wouldn't be really good... But again, I don't know anything about NL, just giving general thoughts.
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,295
      I certainly see your point. Like I said, folding is totally fine imo, and most definitely the standard play. I didn't expect a 3way pot as both blinds were tight, and I most certainly didn't want to 3bet isolate with 78os. Flat calling a m/r seemed acceptable due to the reasonably high SPR it would create, combined with my implied odds.
      This play is simply higher variance than folding. With the intention to bluff postflop perhaps it is even higher +EV than folding preflop depending on the specific villain. (At least, I /hope/ it is higher +EV than folding, that was the nature of my question in essence). Due to previous action, his postflop perception of me is likely tight and straightfoward.
      Flat calling certainly seemed acceptable, even if it is not the basic level play. (Folding on the flop is also acceptable, but I wanted to exploit his weak range)

      w34z3l
    • conall88
      conall88
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      Originally posted by w34z3l
      Originally posted by conall88
      why ad bluffing into your game when you can get him to call with the worst hand?
      Easier said than done. This guy isn't a total idiot, he just happens to be a smarter player trying out a 100%vpip strategy. Besides, I play for fun, not just to make money :f_cool: Got try out some more advanced moves at some point :f_cool:

      w34z3l
      playing 100% is inherently flawed. even in HU , as far as i'm concerned. I wouldn't call him a smarter player if he can't even see past that!
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,295
      Originally posted by conall88
      playing 100% is inherently flawed. even in HU , as far as i'm concerned. I wouldn't call him a smarter player if he can't even see past that!
      Ha yeah. I just think it must be some sort of prop bet or challenge rather than them being total idiots. The real idiots seem to play something like 75%vpip because even THEY figure out that they should be folding the absolute worst trash hands. It's not the first guy I've seen play like this at a particular site.
      Judging from the postflop play they seem to be quite strong players. Not like a typical donk who might happily commit his whole stack with bottom or middle pair for example. Sometimes they even make a fair amount of money at a table. The less intelligent regs assume they are fish for their high VPIP, try to isolate them, and then get outplayed postflop.

      w34z3l

      PS 100vpip. Exploitable? More than likely. Inherently flawed? Nope ;) All depends on your opponents ;)
    • conall88
      conall88
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      dude it is inherently flawed. even if you fold on the flop your losing too much calling the blinds, remember your only gonna flop two pair ~2 percent of the time. its just never going to be a +VE move. think longterm.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Hi Grailer