[NL20-NL50] AKs Fold vs 4 Bet?

    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.1/$0.2 No-Limit Hold'em (6 handed)

      Known players:
      BB:
      $6.62
      MP2:
      $18.90
      MP3:
      $22.68
      CO:
      $23.05
      BU:
      $19.80
      SB (Hero):
      $25.39


      Preflop: Hero is SB with A, K.
      MP2 folds, MP3 raises to $0.80, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.60, BB folds, MP3 raises to $6.00, Hero raises to $25.49, MP3 calls $16.68.

      Flop: ($48.27) 3, J, 2 (2 players)


      Turn: ($48.27) 2 (2 players)


      River: ($48.27) 8 (2 players)


      Final Pot: $48.27.

      Villain is VP:13/PR:11/AFq:45 over 112 hands.

      What should I do here after his 4Bet?
  • 10 replies
    • TetraQuark
      TetraQuark
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.05.2008 Posts: 1,520
      Hi!

      I think that at best here you are flipping. I mean 112 hands isn`t a big enough sample but 13 /11 speaks for itself.
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      Hi Gregor,

      Would you mind to elaborate a bit your thinking? Are you saying that you would fold here?

      I'm getting a bit lost with the AI prflop as I have the feeling that I am up against monsters when I do it ( he had AA here )

      It's getting frustrating to grind, do well, have the curve going up and then going back down cz of AI Pref vs monsters.

      He is 13/11 Whats his 4 Bet range ? QQ+/AK (2.5%) in which I'm 40% underdog so ok.


      Basically my question is wo any specific read on 4B are we happy to go AI preflop with AK (unless the guy is a nit with VP:7 PR:3).

      Thx for your help.
    • TetraQuark
      TetraQuark
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.05.2008 Posts: 1,520
      Well first of all going AI pf with AK against a fullstack is generally not advisable except if you have a strong read about villain being a complete retard or in blind battles where thinking players adjust to your steals and ranges get wider.

      About nits, 7/3 is a retard nit who is not a winning player in most cases and plays JJ+ and probably doesn`t think in ranges at all. 13/11 is still a nit but probably aware of ranges, steals, positions and so on.
      Try putting 10-11% in a equilator. You can easily play this kind of a player of his hand by 3b him, cuz he is tight and will rarely call a 3b with AT, AJ, AQ and mid pp but he still has to raise those hands pf!
      So you can easily use that in your advantage a 3b him light with for example mid pp, suited broadways and so on(very advisable when ip).
      But when such player puts up resistance and starts 4b, you are surely up against his top range(you must be aware tough if he starts adjusting to your play, but that is rarely the case on nl25).

      Hope it helps.
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      I see so basically 13/11 that 4 Bet I just Fold.
      Yep that makes sense

      Thanks
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      it is easy shove
      I think players get there all-in all day long with QQ+/AK against AKs is doing fine, some looser players even TT+/AK
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      Basically a 5 bet shove is 20$ to win 45 - that is 44%
      Against TT+/AK we have 43% equity.
      So I suppose we are ok.

      You also suggest 4B and call to a shove in the following hand vs a VP11/PR7

      Fold AKs Preflop


      So from what I undertsand Kaitz, shoving AK is fine even against a nit?
      Not only shoving actually but also calling a shove (in which case we have no fold equity)?

      Sorry to ask this again but I fell like i'm running to KK+ in these spots...
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Originally posted by Dublimax
      Basically a 5 bet shove is 20$ to win 45 - that is 44%
      Against TT+/AK we have 43% equity.
      So I suppose we are ok.

      You also suggest 4B and call to a shove in the following hand vs a VP11/PR7

      Fold AKs Preflop


      So from what I undertsand Kaitz, shoving AK is fine even against a nit?
      Not only shoving actually but also calling a shove (in which case we have no fold equity)?

      Sorry to ask this again but I fell like i'm running to KK+ in these spots...
      generally yes, it is good to 4-bet AK and call shove, since you want to have wider 4-betting range than KK/AA and also you wan to add your 4-bet range bluffs to deal aggressive 3-bettors
      Now against nits it depends a lot, if you think they would only shove KK+, then 4-bet/call is not really the best idea, so maybe better is flat or fold 3-bet pf or not 3-bet at the first place, but nowadays games people would get all-in lighter, since games are a lot tougher, so people have to widen their all-in ranges more than just KK+
    • N0pr3s3n7
      N0pr3s3n7
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 14.05.2009 Posts: 1,274
      his 4betting size screams , come to daddy i got AA and want to own someone .... I don't get the point in all in versus such NITTY opponents they are NEVER almost holding QQ or AK or worst hand to make it okey.It's always KK,AA :evil: :evil:


      generally yes, it is good to 4-bet AK and call shove, since you want to have wider 4-betting range than KK/AA and also you wan to add your 4-bet range bluffs to deal aggressive 3-bettors
      Now against nits it depends a lot, if you think they would only shove KK+, then 4-bet/call is not really the best idea, so maybe better is flat or fold 3-bet pf or not 3-bet at the first place, but nowadays games people would get all-in lighter, since games are a lot tougher, so people have to widen their all-in ranges more than just KK+
      don't forget this is about NL100 probably.You can't really apply this in a game in which people don't care about your hand and play according only their hand you have to adjust people,so this is a good advice in general approving someone's game on higher level against someone who is also playing on higher level.You should assume people are bad and don't think on the level you do to justify such a play with balancing ranges.
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      Originally posted by N0pr3s3n7
      his 4betting size screams , come to daddy i got AA and want to own someone ....
      I also do these somehow minraise with AK to look like AA.
      Again at these limits I think I am running most of the time against KK+.

      Jz I am really struggling with 4B,5B and shove preflop...:(
    • NeilSimpson
      NeilSimpson
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.06.2010 Posts: 123
      I fold ak pre in this spot i think. dont like playing a big pot with it pre. to me he only 4 bets you with a better hand, pp for sure. defo 3 bet his ass but when the 4 bet comes in id be away....unless hes a complete retard and ud picked that up from playing.