Playing from SB in FL shorthanded + preflop odds

    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      Hello!

      I have some dillemas about how to play from SB in the situation where there is 1 limper in the pot.I would like to know how to play certain rahter marginal hands in two situations:

      a) BB is loose
      b) BB is tight

      The hands that I'm interested in are the following:

      1) QJo, JTo - Do we throw these away? Raising wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, calling for straight/2 pair outs is out of the question as we are getting 1:5 and we would need 1:5.5. Can we call this if we expect that if we hit a pair it will in most cases be good?

      2) KTo, KJo - We have some SD value with these, but are they strong enough for a raise OOP?

      3) J9o, Q9o, T9o - Are these worth completing?

      4) Axo - These have nice SD value, but wouldn't play so good in multiway pots OOP. Just completing with these seems pretty pointless to me. I guess a raise would be viable with a tight BB, what about with a loose BB?

      5) QJs, JTs, KTs - Can we raise these for value? the odds are good enough to call.

      6) Axs - Again, these seem like a good hand for raising.

      If someone would be bothered to write down these 12 combinations for me, I would be very grateful.

      My second question is regarding the odds needed to call preflop with certain hands. In the approx chart, it is mentioned that we need 1:5.5 to call with any two suited cards. I am guessing that this is calculated with assumption that we pretty much win the pot every time we hit a flush? This is IMO very problematic as we really can't compare 26s to A6s. 26s has way bigger reverse implied odds than A6s. Approximately what odds do we actually need with:

      1) suited trash like 62s, 73s, etc. (we can expect to win some times when the flush hits but also sometimes pay the better flush off)
      2) Qxs, Jxs, Txs (we can expect to win most of the times when flush hits)
      3) Kxs, Axs (we can expect to win almost every time when the flush hits with these)
      4) comparasion between low suited connectors like 23s, 34s, 45s and high ones like 78s, 89s, T9s

      Thank you in advance for your answers,

      Primzi
  • 5 replies
    • Dawnfall26
      Dawnfall26
      Black
      Joined: 30.07.2008 Posts: 3,116
      Hi!

      1) why raising doesnt make sense? isnt equity edge enough... QJo I raise against almost any BB since I just want to exploit the edge; JTo can be limped when BB is bad and loose but is definatelly an iso-raise against tighter BBs , however I would never fold them

      2)This is every more clear...raise in any case,you just want to play the numbers

      3)this is close to 1. , but I see myself isolating with Q9o more often than calling , other two can be overlimped

      4)standard iso-raise with any Ax.When BB is tighter I see anything else as a pretty big mistake and against loose BB you are a big 3way favourite anyway.

      5) like 2. I cannot ever see just limping them

      6)not worth commenting:) raise!

      hope it helps, rest I will try to answer tommorow:)
    • firsttsunami
      firsttsunami
      Black
      Joined: 23.01.2006 Posts: 32,997
      1) i do mostly raise QJo, even more when BB is not that loose and aggressive and the limper is a fish. given he's a bit loose, i would raise though. you pay money on the one side as you commit yourself for doing a continuation bet and you give your opponents implied odds but if BB's fold, you have a bigh advantage, playing the Fish HU. that's worth more than the minus-value that we have to deduct due to the position and your non-showdownvalueable hand but QJ has a really good playability and if the flop comes really bad, you don't necessarily have to place a contibuet. lets say 678 2suited and you don't even have the bd-flushdraw.

      JTo is imo to weak for raising. i raise it just in the case that BB is really not loose and the limper is a big fish but basically i complete that hand.

      2) both hands should be raised

      3) i call all that hands. i do know enough players who actually complete also hands like Q7o etc. J9 T9 Q9 easy call for me. i don'T remember even one guy who fold that hands.

      4) against a BB who is actually overdefending his blind, i like it sometimes to just call with Ax, also to balance my range / to keep my range wide but basically you should isoraise and bring it HU against the fish. :)

      5) all 3 hands easy raise for me

      6) raise!

      i do also complete the suited-hands according to the approx chart but unfortunately i can't tell you how big that reverse implied odds effect is, in case we are dominated by a better flush. as far as i know this effect hasn't been considered in the chart but what you could do is typing in the different suited-hands into your calculator. equilator and pokerstove.

      your opponent has a certain range and then you give yourself 23s with a flushdraw and then you mix up your hands and change them to 98s and AJs etc. problem is, that AJ has showdown-value and overcards-outs which 23s doesn't have. i don't know how to balance and filter out the pair-outs as you can't easily deduct the equity of 6 overcard outs and count 0 pairouts for 23s. i'd like to ask cjheigl who is pretty familiar with all the math. i think he'll give a competent answer. ;)
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      Thanks to both of you for your replys, this should fix a few leaks in my game :) . Looking forward to that maths answer as well!

      SF
    • cjheigl
      cjheigl
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 09.04.2006 Posts: 24,498
      How to play in the SB depends a lot on the range of the limper. Lets assume the limper is a loose and not too aggressive player with a 15-55 range. For evaluation the BB is assumed a standard defender who raises/3-bets his better hands.

      Loose Limper: 44-22, A6s-A2s, K9s-K2s, Q2s+, J5s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, 54s, A7o-A2o, KTo-K3o, Q6o+, J7o+, T8o+, 97o+, 87o, 76o, 65o

      BB Caller: 77-22, A8s-A2s, KTs-K4s, Q6s+, J7s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, 43s, A9o-A2o, KJo-K7o, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 97o+, 86o+, 75o+, 65o, 54o

      Now we can compare our Equity vs the limper only and vs both players (if BB doesn't fold). The following table shows our Equity in both situations. It also shows how our advantage is affected if the BB calls.

      Hand.......Equity..............Equity 3-way...advantage
      ...............hu vs limper.............................vs average 3-way

      22...........50,1.................30,7................-2,5
      33...........52,3.................32,5................-0,8
      44...........54,9.................34,5...............+0,8
      55...........57,3.................37..................+4,7

      A2s.........56,8.................36,7................+3,4
      A3s.........57,6.................37,6................+3,3
      A4s.........58,3.................38,5................+5,2
      KTs.........62,7.................43,7..............+10,4
      QTs.........56,9.................40,3...............+7,0
      JTs..........53,6.................38,7...............+5,5

      A2o.........54,3.................33,1...............-0,2
      A3o.........55,1.................34,0..............+0,7
      A4o.........55,9.................35,0..............+1,7
      A5o.........57,1.................36,2..............+2,9
      A6o.........58,2.................36,8..............+3,5
      A7o.........60,3.................38,9..............+5,6

      KJo..........61,6.................42,3............+10,0
      KTo.........60,7.................40,7..............+7,4
      K9o.........58,2.................37,2..............+3,9
      QJo.........56,2.................39,0..............+6,7
      QTo.........54,6.................37,2..............+3,9
      Q9o........51,9.................33,9..............+0,6
      JTo..........51,0.................35,6..............+2,2

      We see that there are two distinct classes of hands: hands that suffer from a call from BB and hands that don't or even profit.

      Hands that suffer from a call are hands where the equity advantage 3-way is only half or less of the equity advantage vs the limper only. Hands where the advantage 3-way is bigger than half of the advantage vs the limper only profit from a call.

      Hands that profit from a call are 55+, A4s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, A7o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo. Except JTo all of these also have a distinct equity advantage vs the limper only. These hands should definitely be raised.

      The trouble comes with hands that have a equity advantage vs the limper but suffer from a call. These are 22-44, A2s-A3s, A2o-A6o, Q9o. Some of them don't have much advantage vs the limper and therefore should not be raised. These are 22 and Q9o. 33 is close.

      The remaining hands profit from protection. This merits a raise. What if yopu have a loose defender in the big blind? It is then unlikely that a protection raise works. Here you can consider to limp these hands only. Still, the equity advantage of A5o and A6o may be too big to miss a raise. Also the small unsuited aces have a bad playability which means they profit from Initiative.
    • Dawnfall26
      Dawnfall26
      Black
      Joined: 30.07.2008 Posts: 3,116
      Hi!

      Nice analysis but I think it misses one very important point of isolating limpers. They are bad players! and will make mistakes postflop so you dont even need to be ahead of him when BB is tighter. Sure its very hard to be talking about these things in general but I think you can go for very loose isolation raises when limper is bad and BB is likely to fold or will likely fold on flop(talking about 65s,Q2o,...) For the same reason you can start overlimping very close to 100% in many of these spots when BB is passive and bad postflop