SNGEGT vs ICM Trainer - Range Differences

    • DonCorleone369
      DonCorleone369
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2009 Posts: 1,267
      Hi everyone,

      I have been using SNGEGT for a while now and lately, I started using the ICM Trainer.. and I noticed that there is a difference in their hand ranges which confuse me right now..

      For example: if I evaluate a hand in ICM trainer and it would say that my optimal pushing range should be 25,5%.. it shows: 22+, A2s+, A8o+, A5o+, K7s+, KJo+, Q8s+, QTo+, J8s+, JTo+, T8s+, 98s+, 87s+.

      Now a 25% pushing range in SNGEGT would be: 22+, A2+, KTo+, K8s+, QTs+..
      and for a 26% range: 22+, A2+, K9o+, K7s+, QTs+, JTs

      As you can see it's totally different in terms of hand values.. I'm not sure which one is the right one.. Or why it's not similar..

      Any feedback is highly appreciated..
  • 4 replies
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      I don't have much experience with SNGEGT, but I recognize those ranges. It appears that SNGEGT, like SNG Wizard, uses the [URL=http://www2.decf.berkeley.edu/~chubukov/rankings.html]Sklansky-Chubukov[/URL] hand rankings. These are ok for calling ranges, but they are bad for pushing ranges.

      Sklansky's question, which Chubukov answered, was how much you could push from the small blind if you flip your hand face up first. You can push surprisingly deeply with hands like A9o, since it just isn't that likely for the big blind to have better than A9o, and you sometimes win when you run into a better hand. However, this hand ranking pretends that when you have T9s, your opponents know to call with J2o. That penalizes good pushing hands like T9s, which you can see that ICM Trainer says is a push (since you will not flip over your hand), but SNGEGT does not include in a top 26% range.

      I believe that ICM Trainer more often checks each hand for profitability. If your opponents are playing close to the Nash equilibrium, then you should trust the ICM Trainer pushing ranges.
    • DonCorleone369
      DonCorleone369
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2009 Posts: 1,267
      Ok thank you very much ;) .. I was thinking that nobody was going to reply on this thread (probably due to the unpopularity of SNGEGT in general)..

      Yeah you're right that SNGEGT shows much tighter pushing ranges compared to the ICM trainer (and also holdemresources.net).. and actually also calling ranges too.. You have convinced me to rely more on the ICM trainer until I have my SnG Wiz version ;) ..

      Anyway I'd like to ask u one more question if possible.. I have noticed that in the ICM trainer (and holdemresources.net) they sometimes show a pushing (and/or calling) range of sth like A2s+, A8o+, etc... and It actually surprises me that there is sometimes a wide gap between those Ax kickers just because it's suited instead of unsuited ones.. I thought that suited hands only add about 3% equity compared to unsuited hands..

      I hope u understand what I'm trying to say and hopefully can answer my question too.. Thx again!

      Greetzz
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Hi. There was a similar question in the Spanish language SNG forum. When you are pushing a hand which is likely to be behind when called, the value of suitedness and connectedness increases. If your hand starts out ahead, then making a flush usually does not matter. If your hand starts out behind, then making a flush usually changes a loss into a win.

      If you are thinking about a 10 bb push, a 3% difference means getting a 20 bb pot 3% more often. That is 0.6 bb on average, which is not so small compared with the blinds you would like to steal. Nevertheless, if A2s is a profitable push, then pushing A2o can be a mistake, but not a huge mistake.

      Weak suited kings (K9 and below) are often much better pushing hands than weak offsuit kings.
    • DonCorleone369
      DonCorleone369
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2009 Posts: 1,267
      Thx pzhon ;) .. Really great solid advice!

      Greetzz