[NL2-NL10] NL4 AA flop difficult decision

    • monty90
      monty90
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2008 Posts: 21
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.04(BB) Replayer
      SB ($0.92)
      BB ($3.66)
      CO ($4.75)
      Hero ($3.90)

      Dealt to Hero A:club: A:spade:

      fold, Hero raises to $0.12, fold, BB calls $0.08

      FLOP ($0.26) Q:club: 5:club: 8:diamond:

      BB checks, Hero bets $0.13, BB raises to $0.52, Hero raises to $1.17, BB raises to $3.54 (AI), Hero ??

      im thinking of folding here but i think its possible he could show up like k8 of clubs or something or just a pair of queens. Shoukd i fold or is it likely im ahead ? thank for the help
  • 9 replies
    • yeahyoung0312
      yeahyoung0312
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      If you want to fold then fold to his 1st raise on flop, when you decided to re-raise then you have to call the push.

      Whether you want to fold to his 1st flop raise depends on villain's type which determines whether you think you are ahead against most of hands in villain's check-raise range. If you have seen him overplaying TPTK/TPGK before then you can get it in. If you have seen him raising with FD on flop before then you can get it in. If villain never did both and is a passive player then you can fold.
    • monty90
      monty90
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2008 Posts: 21
      I dont see why i cant fold to the shove , its not like im calling $1 to win $5 or something, i think in this situation if i know im beat then i have to fold but i was not sure at the time, but im still certain if i put him on like pair+flush draw and above i probably have to fold .

      I dont think i can fold to the orignal reraise because that for starters can be a check raise bluff as the flop is not really likely to have hit my preflop range or he may even be check raising for value with a queen asumming im going to cb
    • yeahyoung0312
      yeahyoung0312
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      Just run it through the equilator, you overpair + backdoor flush draw had 58% equity against a range of JcTc, AQ, 6c7c, QQ, 55, 88, KK, KcJc, Jc9c. Even if you exclude QQ/KK you still have 54% equity. You were given 1.4:1 odds, which means you only need 35% equity to call.

      A lot of plrs play FD/combo draw quick on the flop. 1st raise is a semi bluff and when re-raised they get the odds to push.

      If you don't plan to get it in and play for stack what's the point of re-raising on the flop? You can just call his raise and re-evaluate the turn.

      If you keep folding AA on a 4 bet flop like this you become too exploitable in the long run. If it's JJ on a 69T suited board then a fold is not a bad mistake. But AA here you just can't fold.
    • yeahyoung0312
      yeahyoung0312
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      Originally posted by monty90
      I dont think i can fold to the orignal reraise because that for starters can be a check raise bluff as the flop is not really likely to have hit my preflop range or he may even be check raising for value with a queen asumming im going to cb
      Check-raising KQ/QJ for value here just doesn't make any sense. Check-raising a set here for value is a bad play but still too many plrs do this. So yes you could be facing a set but you can never be 100% sure.

      If villain is the type to check/raise TPGK then he overplays and it's you turn to punish him. If you have seen him check/raise set before and you are not sure about this time just call his raise, don't re-raise him.
    • monty90
      monty90
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2008 Posts: 21
      Originally posted by yeahyoung0312
      Just run it through the equilator, you overpair + backdoor flush draw had 58% equity against a range of JcTc, AQ, 6c7c, QQ, 55, 88, KK, KcJc, Jc9c. Even if you exclude QQ/KK you still have 54% equity. You were given 1.4:1 odds, which means you only need 35% equity to call.
      .
      i think your giving him a range far too wide. you really think your going to get that much action JTc 67cc KJcc j9cc , i think he will never show up with these hands in his range, after i reraise him i dont see him carrying on the hand with these.
    • yeahyoung0312
      yeahyoung0312
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      Originally posted by monty90
      i think your giving him a range far too wide. you really think your going to get that much action JTc 67cc KJcc j9cc , i think he will never show up with these hands in his range, after i reraise him i dont see him carrying on the hand with these.
      So you are saying you re-raised, assuming he would fold all FD/Monster draw/TPTK/TPGK/overpair and ONLY push a set? This is too specific an assumption to be made.

      In general I think the idea behind your flop re-raise is wrong. Your re-raise there should have one purpose which is to play for stack. Once you made that re-raise there is no folding for you.

      If you have doubt on the flop, you can just flat him and see if he continues to barrel on the turn. You never re-raise there "for info" as 1) you will never get 100% accurate info + 2) the price for info here is just too high if you plan to fold to a push.

      If he shows a set just remember this is how he plays a set and next time he check/call you know he had TPTK or a draw.
    • monty90
      monty90
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2008 Posts: 21
      im not saying hes folding all flush draws but your saying hes shoving with 67c jkc jtc i highly doubt it and why would i want to play for stacks here with an overpair, hardly ever good. i never ever said hes folding monster draws . but after his reraise it really polarizes range to at the very least AQ and pair of 8 + flush draw and above
    • yeahyoung0312
      yeahyoung0312
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      6c7c = the best combo draw out there.
      JcTc = gut shot + fd = 12 outs.

      Against the range you said, AQ + 88 + 55 + reasonable flush draws, which I think are 6c7c, JcTc, and KcJc (less likely but still possible), you still have 55% equity. On that flop there can be 6 combos of AQ, 3 combos of 88, 3 combos of 55, and many other FD combos. So against the MAJORITY of his range you were ahead.

      Originally posted by monty90
      why would i want to play for stacks here with an overpair, hardly ever good.
      Why would you re-raise if you don't want to play for stacks? Again if you always 3bet flop and only expect to fold to a 4bet without the nuts then that's a leak.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      once you 3-bet flop you have to call shove, since he can shove there value smt like AQ/KQ and also all the draws that you beat
      If you´re not comfortable playing there for stacks, you can always just call and decide on his river bet