[NL2-NL10] Full House vs. Quads

    • SilverSag
      SilverSag
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 512
      The villain is one with the longest record I have in my database (2453 hands), has proven to be a solid player (well, at least looking from my level). Stats show 12/9/2.52, so I guess that would qualify him as TAG. He caused me trouble once already by limping in with JJ from late position.

      When I played this hand I knew that he has one Q, but I put him at AQs. Now, when replaying this hand and analysing, I am thinking that I should have at least thought about him having QQ, because he did openraise from UTG, but...

      the big question is - should I really have folded a full house?

      please evaluate:

      $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Holdem
      10 Players
      Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

      Stacks:
      UTG ($16.43)
      UTG+1 ($15.11)
      UTG+2 ($13.04)
      Hero ($38.30)
      MP2 ($5.42)
      MP3 ($10.01)
      CO ($4.44)
      BTN ($31.18)
      SB ($10.18)
      BB ($3.30)

      Pre-Flop: ($0.15, 10 players) Hero is MP1 2:heart: 2:club:
      UTG raises to $0.40, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.40, MP2 calls $0.40, 5 folds

      Flop: 10:spade: Q:heart: 2:diamond: ($1.35, 3 players)
      UTG checks, Hero bets $0.60, MP2 calls $0.60, UTG calls $0.60

      Turn: Q:diamond: ($3.15, 3 players)
      UTG checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets $0.40, UTG calls $0.40, Hero raises to $4.75, MP2 folds, UTG goes all-in $15.43, Hero goes all-in $37.30

      River: 5:spade: ($56.28, 2 players, 2 all-in)

      Final Pot: $56.28
      Hero shows
      2:heart: 2:club:
      UTG shows
      Q:spade: Q:club:

      UTG wins $32.41 (net +$15.98)

      Hero collects $21.87 (net -$16.43)
      MP2 lost $1.40
  • 9 replies
    • johnylee
      johnylee
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2009 Posts: 132
      i would play the same.
    • johnbeattie85
      johnbeattie85
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.09.2008 Posts: 716
      It's hard to say as played. You are really unhappy getting it in here against such a player - but folding sucks since you have put so much money in the pot and there's still a chance he can have AQ. I don't mind fold since I think he would be more inclined to check sets rather than top pairs on the flop - plus he may not want to go all-in with AQ since your range here is very strong and includes few worse Qx.

      I also think you should bet flop and turn 2/3ish rather than trying to check/raise.
    • yeahyoung0312
      yeahyoung0312
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      There is no way you can fold there.
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      I don't think you should post the results here, especially in the title. Read the hand posting guidelines sticky!
    • johnbeattie85
      johnbeattie85
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.09.2008 Posts: 716
      Maybe I’m being results oriented – but I rly don’t think you should underestimate the nittyness of FR regs in this spot. If UTG does some basic hand reading and views you as another regular, he will know your range is pretty much AQs, 22, TT. It doesn’t make huge sense for him to stack off with AQ 160bb deep.

      Going all-in can’t be that bad if there’s even the slightest chance he has AQ – but it’s not a ‘yay I have a set awwr-in!’ spot. Check/raising the turn kind of overplays your hand, and puts you in this hard spot that is going to depend heavily on how UTG views you and on his level of thinking.
    • yeahyoung0312
      yeahyoung0312
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      Originally posted by johnbeattie85
      Going all-in can’t be that bad if there’s even the slightest chance he has AQ – but it’s not a ‘yay I have a set awwr-in!’ spot. Check/raising the turn kind of overplays your hand, and puts you in this hard spot that is going to depend heavily on how UTG views you and on his level of thinking.
      This I totally agree. Lines should have been different.

      The hands that beat you there are the 2 TT, 6 TQ (which I don't think a TAG would raise from UTG but I will give it 1/3 possibility so it counts as 2) and 1QQ: 5 combos.

      The problem then is to define UTG's slow-play/pushing range on the turn. The possible hands are the 8 AQ combos but as Johnbeattie85 pointed out that AQ probably won't look to stack here.

      So now I actually see a tough fold but most of the time plrs holding a full house there are just too excited and just want to put all the money to the middle.
    • monty90
      monty90
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2008 Posts: 21
      personally i would do the same i think you beat too many combos of Qx someone here will know better than me tho :f_p:
      the only realistic hands beating us that called the flop in my opinion is TT, QQ, and maybe QT but there is lots of combos of Qx we beat
    • monty90
      monty90
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2008 Posts: 21
      Originally posted by johnbeattie85
      Maybe I’m being results oriented – but I rly don’t think you should underestimate the nittyness of FR regs in this spot.
      i kinda of agree with you on this but even iv seen regs playing with similar stats at NL4 not only show up with AQ but also KQ , iv seen at least two players do this and that is over about 1k hands.
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      Hi,

      Originally posted by Schnitzelfisch
      I don't think you should post the results here, especially in the title. Read the hand posting guidelines sticky!
      This, don't hint at them when you talk about the hand either, or at least try not to :p

      On the flop you should bet bigger it's a no-brainer, people willing to call a bet on that board will do it regardless of whether you bet 2/5 or 3/4. Then bet the turn as well strong instead of check/raising when one player has already checked, it's disastrous if MP2 checks behind.

      For the rest I agree with johnbeattie85 except I'd probably fold the turn more often than him, just because I believe it's way more likely he got fancy on the flop with better than just Qx, which means on the turn since slowplayed KK+ should be scared as hell by the other Q coming in, his range is pretty much boats with only a few AQ combos in my eyes.

      Don't underestimate the nittiness of nits. The reason you shouldn't is what you said at the begining, you have a lot of hands on him and you describe him as "solid", I'm guessing he's winning a decent amount of money, and yet he's playing so very few hands and just playing awfully overall it seems, limping JJ from late position is horrendous, the way he played that hand is borderline as well. These players just rely on others not believing them to make money, and it works at microstakes because people lack discipline. Just something to keep in mind.


      Hope it helps.