some 3betting and blinds question

    • supeyrio
      supeyrio
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2009 Posts: 3,106
      some questions that i would like to ask although i'm quite positive that there is no clear defined answers for some questions.

      3betting:
      if we want to 3bet linearly, what is the order of hands that we add to our range in terms of hand strength?
      e.g. if jack only 3bets 0.45%(AA) and wants to increase his 3betting range to 2.11% he includes KK then AKs then AKo to his 3betting range. so the top range is AA, kk, AKs, AKo, ......,....., and what are the following hands?

      what kind of hands do we want to have in our weak end of our polarised 3betting range? total thrash? suited connectors? suited A/K/Q high cards? small pocket pairs? etc etc... i understand that all can be 3betted since they are considered as the bluffing range, but in what situations are one type better than the other? e.g. why is 3betting suited connectors better than small pocket pairs against opponent X?

      Blinds:

      what hands do we want to defend in SB? BB? a defined range is not plausible, rather a rationale.
      what is our calling range then?
      what hands is better to 3b in blinds than to call? or better to call than to 3b?

      i understand that some of these questions maybe asked before, if such please direct me to the information
      i also understand that this questions may require a long essay response, but please take your time to aid me with these questions!
      i generally have a vague idea, but i would like reaffirmation from more experienced players.

      thank you for the help
  • 9 replies
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,872
      I will be interested in responses to these questions, since I also struggle with this issue.

      My guess is that the range you three bet from the blinds will depend on the opening range of the open raiser, since some types of hands will perform better against that range.

      Eg. if villain is raising 10% and you want to 3 bet, my guess is you should 3b suited connectors rather than hands like QK or AT.

      That said I would not know how to be more specific...
    • supeyrio
      supeyrio
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2009 Posts: 3,106
      anyone? maybe Bierbaer can offer some insights? hmm
    • OZSA
      OZSA
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.05.2009 Posts: 804
      Imo 3betting a 56s 67s 78s 9Ts is way more powerful then AJ AT KQ KJ KT and so on. but really its all about the players who u 3bet, if its weak tight, doesnt matter what u 3bet, in the long term i think u loose, coz once he calls he has to be ahead assuming he raise AJ,AT 3bb folds to 10bb 3bet OOP..my question would be how u handle QQ against a reg or unknown, not 3betting gives too many outs for them to beat u, but if 4bet comes...pretty much u can pray for AK but the rest kills u..also, do u 3bet-4bet shove AK against regs/unknowns? I see it alot in rush..like lets say i got JJ raise 3bb, mp raise 9bb, bu raise 27bb and i gotta fold, sadly both of them got AKo..how u'd handle that spot with jacks or even queens.
    • Bierbaer
      Bierbaer
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2005 Posts: 7,989
      Hi,

      uh, this is really a big matter, I guess you could write a book about it :D .

      Tbh I never put in the work to exactly find out which hands play best against which range (I should probably do it though).

      But in general imo you should rather call playable hands like SCs/KJ-type-hands IP (as long as there isn't a player squeezing you all the time) and 3bet a polarized range because you're just "wasting" your positional advantage with a hand like KJ or a SC as OZSA said - the opponent is not calling worse hands.

      OOP things get even more complicated, as Tim said it mostly depends on the opponent what you want to 3bet. To figure out which hands you should use against what kind of opponent in particular I suggest you open up Pokerstove and figure out how the hands perform against certain ranges.
      If I do it for you it doesn't only take me several hours to do this thoroughly + write it down, but also you won't benefit as much from it when you didn't do it yourself.

      Of course if you have any questions you can post them here.

      Hope this helps.

      Best regards,
      Bierbaer
    • OZSA
      OZSA
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.05.2009 Posts: 804
      I would also be interested in another topic, what hands do you 4bet when u see somebody is squeezing alot, for example one who always 3bets when theres a raise+2callers, or 3bet alot BvB, BUvSB/BB. AK is surely in the range, but what if the 5bet shove or big 5bet is coming ? I could never 4bet AK in my life only against those who played really loose. Just cant remember a day that was good with AK in my 1year poker career, while I see others 4bet shove AK, they mostly get busted vs KK AA really rare to see there QQ calling the shove...
    • supeyrio
      supeyrio
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2009 Posts: 3,106
      depending on the dynamics of your site, 4betting/5bet AI AK can be profitable especially late open vs blind situation. with you holding AK, you have blockers to AA and KK. by 4betting/5betting with AK, you create more situations where u can win dead money since they can 3bet with so many hands but fold to 4bet. but when we 4bet, we have to get it in since we almost always have the odds to call.
      i think u can cold 4bet any hand since we are always folding our bluffs if we get shoved or called(unless miracle flop). ofc it is good to have blockers

      @bierbar: thanks for you input! :D
    • OZSA
      OZSA
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.05.2009 Posts: 804
      just something about the blockers...really in theory its nice and beautiful..but dunno how much rush u played, there honestly, whenever u see a 5bet shove, its always somebody with AA vs KK, QQ vs KK, or a mad AK vs AA/KK, never in my life saw an allin with 100bb stack by both players with lets say...AK vs hmm TT JJ AQ AJ or anything like this...maybe 2-3 times I saw an AK vs QQ but thats the absolutely best situation I ever saw, beside that its always AA/KK, dunno how full tilt is dealing so many gay situations, its like they are crying for more rake, yesterday I saw a hand 2shorties vs 2 bigstacks, AK vs AK vs AA vs KK, i mean..how gay is that? and I just folded QQ... question: if you get a 10-12bb 3bet, do u 4bet to 30-36 or make it less?
    • supeyrio
      supeyrio
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2009 Posts: 3,106
      rush has different game dynamics which i'm not too sure about hence i wouldn't like to comment. generally, 4bet around 2.5x of 3bet size will be good. maybe the reason why you hardly see any 5bet shove of that nature is because the 4bet bluff would have folded his air? u might wanna join some rush sweat groups to discuss
    • BattleHunter
      BattleHunter
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.11.2009 Posts: 880
      So far the strategy that's working great for me (nl25 rush sh) is to 3bet polarized-ish IP. I 3bet QQ+ AK and suited stuff up to about 8-10%. Ofc if someone 4bets me, unless we have some history or I've seen him do crazy things I only continue with KK+

      Like Bierbaer I prefer to play high cards in position for what they are worth, so KJ for example is a standard call IP.


      On the other hand OOP I prefer to play much more for "thin" value and with a non-polarized range. So far what I have seen from villains is that since everyone is 3betting A TON in rush, their general adaptation is rather stupid - they start flatting 3bets IP with things like KJ, QJ.. And ofc this is what happens:


      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
      SB ($12.26)
      BB ($25)
      UTG ($26.77)
      UTG+1 ($29.85)
      Hero ($26.54)
      BTN ($40.39)

      Dealt to Hero A:diamond: Q:heart:

      UTG raises to $1, UTG+1 calls $1, Hero raises to $3.75, BTN calls $3.75, fold, fold, UTG calls $2.75, UTG+1 calls $2.75

      FLOP ($15.35) 8:club: 2:spade: Q:spade:
      UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $0.25, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.25, Hero raises to $9, BTN calls $8.75, UTG+1 folds

      TURN ($33.60) 8:club: 2:spade: Q:spade: 2:diamond:
      Hero bets $13.79 (AI), BTN calls $13.79

      RIVER ($61.18) 8:club: 2:spade: Q:spade: 2:diamond: K:diamond:
      BTN shows J:diamond: Q:club:
      (Pre 27%, Flop 14.3%, Turn 10.2%)

      Hero shows A:diamond: Q:heart:
      (Pre 73%, Flop 85.7%, Turn 89.8%)

      Hero wins $58.18







      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
      SB ($25.10)
      Hero ($39.01)
      UTG ($32.75)
      UTG+1 ($53.33)
      CO ($25)
      BTN ($25)

      Dealt to Hero A:club: A:diamond:

      UTG raises to $0.75, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $2.50, UTG calls $1.75

      FLOP ($5.10) 7:club: K:club: 3:heart:
      Hero bets $3.50, UTG calls $3.50

      TURN ($12.10) 7:club: K:club: 3:heart: 3:diamond:
      Hero bets $8, UTG raises to $26.75 (AI), Hero calls $18.75

      RIVER ($65.60) 7:club: K:club: 3:heart: 3:diamond: 9:club:
      Hero shows A:club: A:diamond:
      (Pre 88%, Flop 81.6%, Turn 95.5%)

      UTG shows Q:club: K:diamond:
      (Pre 12%, Flop 18.4%, Turn 4.5%)

      Hero wins $62.60




      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
      Hero ($35.57)
      BB ($8.25)
      UTG ($23.41)
      UTG+1 ($21.68)
      CO ($27.02)
      BTN ($63.96)

      Dealt to Hero Q:heart: Q:club:

      UTG raises to $0.50, UTG+1 calls $0.50, fold, fold, Hero raises to $2.25, BB calls $2, fold, UTG+1 calls $1.75

      FLOP ($7.25) 3:diamond: 3:heart: J:diamond:
      Hero bets $4.25, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $4.25

      TURN ($15.75) 3:diamond: 3:heart: J:diamond: 3:spade:
      Hero bets $15.75, UTG+1 calls $15.18 (AI)

      RIVER ($46.11) 3:diamond: 3:heart: J:diamond: 3:spade: A:spade:
      UTG+1 shows J:club: T:spade:
      (Pre 14%, Flop 8.7%, Turn 4.5%)

      Hero shows Q:heart: Q:club:
      (Pre 86%, Flop 91.3%, Turn 95.5%)

      Hero wins $43.81






      This general observation leads me to beleive that it's better to 3b hands oop that play well vs their range of calling with broadways and not letting go of top pairs. I also prefer to 3b broadways myself oop, because it holds blockers to the hands he is going to flat me / raise me with, sometimes I will flop a top pair that is good, but most of the times they will just miss and fold their overcards to my cbet. As long as you do not get married to a top pair, this seems to be a good strategy imo