Question for Pzhon

    • kiromanAAKK
      kiromanAAKK
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2009 Posts: 4,022
      Hi Coach,
      The value of the equity necessary to make a call calculated by the Equilator of PS.com doesn't muck the value given by the ICMExplorer. Why?

      Also, there is a way to calculate the equity approx to make a call while we are at the table and cannot using any calculators or tools?
      (Es. as we do for the pot odds, Pot/Bet)

      Another coach in a video using calculate it by divide the bet for the total pot (Bets, Blinds and eventual Antes) but again I cannot muck the value of it with the one out Equilator or ICMExplorer. What I do wrong?

      Can you please clarify all this confuse argument?
      Thanks a lot :heart:
  • 7 replies
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Could you please give an example of something you are trying to calculate with both tools? ICM Explorer is primarily concerned with calculations according to the Independent Chip Model, and I didn't think Equilator did anything with the ICM. Perhaps I should look more closely.

      I often use both ICM Explorer and Equilator, but on different parts of a problem. For example, ICM Explorer might tell me that I need 55% equity against the pusher's range to call. Then I put a range for the pusher into Equilator, and ask for all hands with 55% equity against that range.

      To calculate the equity you need to make a call in a SNG, I suggest trying to calculate the risk premium. The equity you need to call equals the equity you need to break even in chips plus the risk premium. The equity you need to break even in chips is usually easy to calculate, and the risk premium is something you can learn to estimate based on the stacks. For example, if there is 1000 in the pot on the first hand of the tournament, and someone pushes for 1000 more, then you are getting pot odds of 2:1, and you need 33% equity to break even in chips. The risk premium with 9 equal stacks is just under 5% when you are calling a push, so you need about 38% equity against your opponent's range to call whether the push is preflop or postflop.
    • kiromanAAKK
      kiromanAAKK
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2009 Posts: 4,022
      Ok TY Coach! It is now clear that I have got the entire concepts wrong.
      So, the equity that give us ICMExplorer is not exactly the minimum equity request for a push to be profitable that we may easily calculate on the Equilator.

      Just to help me to go head with the correct use of ICMExplorer and Equilator together. We suppose that ICM Explorer tell me that I need 41% equity against the pusher's range to call, how exactly I am going to use this 41% in Equilator? (Sorry about that it is not you as I believe u explain concept very well but I am not sure that I really understand how to use appropriate this great tools and all their potential). Can you please make an illustrative example?

      Plus, you said that the equity we need to break even in chips is usually easy to calculate, but how in practice we are going to do that?
      Please forgive my thickness :D and thanks a lot for all your support.
      Thx :heart:
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Blinds: 200/400

      CO: 4400
      BTN: 2200
      SB: 5400
      BB (Hero): 1500

      Preflop:
      CO folds, BTN pushes for 2200, SB folds, Hero ???

      If you put this into ICM Explorer and press "Call Push?" then the output is

      Fold: 1100 chips, 0.112, SD: $14.35
      Win: 3200 chips, 0.2732
      Lose: 0 chips, 0
      Tie: 1600 chips, 0.155

      Equity needed: 41%
      Chip odds: 34.38%
      Risk premium: 6.62%
      Chips gained by marginal call: 211.97.
      Ties count as 56.74% of a win.
      SD of marginal call: $15.01.

      Then you want 41% equity against the BTN's range to call. Open Equilator and click on the range selector for one player (it doesn't matter which one). Put in the range you think the button would push through the chip leader. For simplicity, put in any pair, any ace, and any broadway. Change the minimum equity field from 20.00 to 41. Click on Equilate. Output:

      Operation completed... 767,711,498,400 games processed in 0 seconds.

      Handrange with greater equity than 41%:
      Hand
      Player 1: 22+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, A2o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo

      Pairs
      22+

      Suited
      A2s+
      K9s+
      QTs+
      JTs

      Offsuit
      A3o+
      KTo+
      QJo

      That means you can call with 22+ A2s+ A3o+ K9s+ KTo+ QTs+ QJo JTs. Those are the hands with at least 41% equity against the range we gave to the BTN.

      To calculate the equity needed to break even in chips, you can divide the cost of a call by the total size of the pot. In this case, calling costs 1100, and the total size of the pot if you call is 3200, so you need 1100/3200 ~ 34% to break even in chips. The risk premium is about 7%, and 34% + 7% = the 41% equity you need for the call to break even in money.

      There are some tips on calculating the equity needed to break even in chips in my video "Calling All-In." You may want to watch or rewatch it.
    • kiromanAAKK
      kiromanAAKK
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2009 Posts: 4,022
      Hi Coach,

      Thanks a lot for the great explanation and for the immense patience to do that.
      Finally, I got it all together. My mistake was in the confusion between equity needed against a call range and equity needed to break even.

      Of course, I will going to watch again your video (even I watch it all ready several time and obviously not enough :D ) as it should make absolutely more sense after your clarification.

      Thanks once again very much :heart:
      Regards
    • kiromanAAKK
      kiromanAAKK
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2009 Posts: 4,022
      Hi Coach,
      Sorry to bother you again but I wonder if there is a way to calculate the risk premium without knowing the equity needed to make a call.
      Thank you very much :heart:
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      I don't think the risk premium is something you want to try to calculate. You can estimate it based on seeing the risk premiums in many past situations. Try playing around with ICM Explorer, and I think you will get a feel for when the risk premium is 5% versus 15% quickly.
    • kiromanAAKK
      kiromanAAKK
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2009 Posts: 4,022
      Originally posted by pzhon
      I don't think the risk premium is something you want to try to calculate. You can estimate it based on seeing the risk premiums in many past situations. Try playing around with ICM Explorer, and I think you will get a feel for when the risk premium is 5% versus 15% quickly.
      Thank you :heart: