Sponsor a friends in poker..

    • Skibula
      Skibula
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.07.2008 Posts: 86
      hey all,


      so this is the story (in short ).


      one of my best friends is a really good at live poker games (he cant play online he just cant play more then 3 tables.. and he dont like to sit in the pc so many hours)

      i trust him and i think he one of the best live poker players i seen...

      the issue is like this:

      he need a really good bankroll because our local games are pretty high and really aggressive..

      my question is..

      lets say i sponsor 50% of the bankroll

      how much should i get from the winnings ?

      (im not gonna play at all.. only him, and he have proove for been a good player , records of all his live games.. , and i seen this dude in action.. he is a jenius.... For real...)

      any way.

      if i invest 25% of the bankroll

      how much should i get of the winnings..

      im pretty sure i sepuse to get less then 25% but any one here have an idea ?


      lets forget that he is a friend im talking straight business
  • 24 replies
    • tcs35
      tcs35
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.01.2009 Posts: 3,583
      It's pretty obvious. You invest 50% and you get 50% of the winnings
    • AlCaTrAzzALZ
      AlCaTrAzzALZ
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.05.2008 Posts: 726
      if your only staking 50%, then a 50/50 chop sounds fair... if you were staking more than that, like if you were in for the full 100%, i'd want a much better deal (say 70/30, with the option for the ratio to improve once he has proven himself as a winner on borrowed money)

      remember, for some players, not playing with their own money can either make them play better or just become a live one...
    • Skibula
      Skibula
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.07.2008 Posts: 86
      why should i get 50 if i invest 50
      i know it sound fair..

      but are we sure about it ?

      he invest his time in playing..

      he is pretty sold player with stats (i see him as a semi pro player)

      he wish to give me 20% of winnings if i invest 25%


      his argues are that he invest the time in play.. he should get something for that..

      also he have really good stats... for long time ...

      there is no argue about if he is a good player or not..
    • silent21
      silent21
      Global
      Joined: 08.08.2008 Posts: 1,556
      what ? nothing personal but you should learn a little bit about finance

      if the bank give you 100$ will u give her back the same amount? no, you will return more.

      the situation is the same with the difference that he is a very good friend of yours. anything less than 1 to 1 (50% stake vs 50% winnings) is a rip off.

      there are several reasons for this (1)after all he would have played these "high stakes" games if it wasnt ur money (2) you risk your money as well

      in reality if it wasnt ur friend but some random good player you should ask for more than 50%
    • Hlynkinn
      Hlynkinn
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.06.2008 Posts: 4,998
      if you invest only 50% in his action I'm guessing getting 30% of winnings is fair for both players...

      If you invest 25% and you get 20% of the profits I think you're making a good deal.. if he is as good as you say..
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      But while you're saying that he has invested his time in playing, you are also risking your money, when you have no control over what will happen.
    • vonki
      vonki
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 6,091
      I agree with the people, invest 50 and get 50 back. You risc money with no real gaurantee that he will win, and if he's willing to give you 20% if you invest 25% then what is the difference?

      I mean yes, he invests time in playing but you invest the money, and he will already get 50% of what he earns, so... O_o

      the only reason he wont give you 50% is because of greed tbh :P If he was your friend he'd give you 50% lol :D I would if someone was kind enough to stake me :P

      Staking normally work that way, when someone stakes me for an MTT they do it because they have confidence in the fact that I will be able to make money and 30% of buyin equals 30% of what I win.
    • Hlynkinn
      Hlynkinn
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.06.2008 Posts: 4,998
      Not many people are familiar with staking here..

      in the pastwhen I ran some staking deals mostly for mtt's they paid 100% the buy in.. and if I made some profits they got 50% and stake back..
      Meaning if I got $55.. and cashed $100.. Staker would get around $79

      No grinder would ever agree someone only buying 50% in his action and wanting to get 50% of profits.. That simply doesn't benefit the horse imo.. Except he's broke..

      Backers do invest in horses not because It's fun.. But because they believe they can make money this way.. I've seen some big 70/30 deals been made.. but mostly it's just standard 50/50...

      This was when I had proven myself as a winning mtt player..

      If this stake is a long term thing and he's a winning player.. he'll have a guaranteed profit in X amount of time.. meaning your not risking your money at all..

      Him giving you 20% when you just cover 25% of his bankroll is generous by him IMHO
    • Hlynkinn
      Hlynkinn
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.06.2008 Posts: 4,998
      30% of buyin equals 30% of what I win.


      I might be interested to get some % of your MTT action if your stats are okay.
    • ihufa
      ihufa
      Gold
      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 3,323
      i think invest 50% and get 100% back would be the standard way to go around this
    • Skibula
      Skibula
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.07.2008 Posts: 86
      Originally posted by Hlynkinn
      Not many people are familiar with staking here..

      in the pastwhen I ran some staking deals mostly for mtt's they paid 100% the buy in.. and if I made some profits they got 50% and stake back..
      Meaning if I got $55.. and cashed $100.. Staker would get around $79

      No grinder would ever agree someone only buying 50% in his action and wanting to get 50% of profits.. That simply doesn't benefit the horse imo.. Except he's broke..

      Backers do invest in horses not because It's fun.. But because they believe they can make money this way.. I've seen some big 70/30 deals been made.. but mostly it's just standard 50/50...

      This was when I had proven myself as a winning mtt player..

      If this stake is a long term thing and he's a winning player.. he'll have a guaranteed profit in X amount of time.. meaning your not risking your money at all..

      Him giving you 20% when you just cover 25% of his bankroll is generous by him IMHO
      you helped me alot...

      i think the same way...
    • tcs35
      tcs35
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.01.2009 Posts: 3,583
      Originally posted by Hlynkinn
      Not many people are familiar with staking here..
      I don't think you are very familiar with staking either. People are getting confused here between staking and selling shares.

      Selling shares would be when you would sell a percentage of the buyins and if you are a good player you add markup. For example if a player is a good then you are likely to buy 1.3% of shares but you only have 1% of equity in the prize pool.

      Staking would be when you put someone in profitable games. A typical staking deal is going to be split 50/50 with makeup and if your horse is better then you can usually have a 60/40 deal.
    • Hlynkinn
      Hlynkinn
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.06.2008 Posts: 4,998
      I know I'm not getting confused between staking and BAP's (buy a piece)

      if you know your going to stake this person more often in the future then I think make up (sometimes referred to as CAKE) should be acceptable by both of you...

      Meaning that if he spews his roll this time.. next time you stake him He'll have to pay you the whole make up he owes you off the winnings before he gets his "share"
      ...

      I am pretty familiar with stakes, SAP's and BAP's.. But mostly for MTT's.. So I might be missing some crucial point in ring game staking..
    • Hlynkinn
      Hlynkinn
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.06.2008 Posts: 4,998
      but Staking is obviously not about something normal..
      Your always trying to make money either when your the horse or the backer..

      But I feel like when both individuals are friends we should try to be fair to profit them both.. getting 100% share on your 50% is imo unfair to the horse... getting 60-70% on your 50% should be fair.. or something around 35% of the total winnings when you only stake him for half the buy in...
      And I would also find it fair to include "Stake back" and "make up" if you think you think you'll stake him more often.
    • PocketAcesJohn
      PocketAcesJohn
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2008 Posts: 1,116
      Put it like this...

      IF you invest 50% (in this case of a bankroll), 50% of that "stock" is yours. If the "stock" goes down, you still own 50%, If the stock goes up you still own 50%. If you brought 50% of a business you'd expect 50% of the controle and 50% of the profit. Poker is no diffrent. All your doing is investing in his "business". I dont think if you brought 50% of say ESPN of SKY they'd complain that they "do all the work". IMO he can take it or leave it. Your doing hi ma favour if you invests.
    • cataah
      cataah
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2009 Posts: 3,060
      @all dudes who say that 50-50 is a fair deal
      imagine playerA pleys poker better than phill ivey but he has no money to play. He finds 2 friends who will give him money. Friend1 gives him 50% and as you say he should get 50% of the profit. Friend2 gives him 50% too and he shoul get 50% of the profit too.
      Then the player wins "ciuciu". Is that a fair deal?

      poker<>business
      In business if you invest 100$ and get 130$ next month (30$profit) that is a good invetment
      In poker if you invest 100$ you are expecting to win way more than 200$ (100$profit) in a month - if you dominate the limit you're playing as Skibula said his friend dominates the live games.

      and if we continue to compare poker with businesses:
      if you find a friend who whants to invest with you in a business and you put 50% and he puts 50% than a 50-50 deal is ok. But neither of you will do a thing - both of you will be home doing nothing. Or if you decide that your frined should take care of the business, he will sure have a salary - nobody works for free.

      In conclusion poker<>business and if in businesses a 50-50 looks ok, in poker could be diffrent

      (sorry for my english)

      @Skibula
      I think 25-20 is a fair deal. And if he is really good, than that colud be a nice deal for you.

      I have a question: how can you know he will not lie? ex: he wins 100$ in one night he comes home and says he won 80$
      you just trust him or you have tracking sisem or something?
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Well if his really so good and is making money out of live poker for a year or more, then how come he doesn't have the money to play? I mean most casinos offer low stakes as well, i think 1/2$ the lowest in most casinos.

      But anyway, how will you know how much he won or lost, unless your watching him play all the time.

      And lest say he needs a 5k roll for 1/2$ and you each invested 2.5k. When do you ''cash out''. What happens if he goes on a downswing and is down to like 3k and needs more money to play. Do you reinvest again 50-50 or give up and get at least some money back?

      And in case his doing good and is up like 5k and he wants to move up a limit but you want to cash out. Imo you have to have all this figured out before you start making any deals. Staking for MTT's is a lot easier, since its not so long term.

      And also what happens if he starts playing high stakes making a lot of money and ends up with lets say 200k roll and doesn't need you anymore. Can he cancel a deal or not, but you dont have an official contract anyway so that can also be a problem.
    • theincrediblebulk
      theincrediblebulk
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.08.2010 Posts: 16
      The most important thing to note here, is that if you invest 100% you will not get 100% of winning.

      That said, you should work out a fair deal.

      Investing 50% to receive stake back +40% of profit seems very fair. (using his 25% stake for 20% return logic).

      Remember, this should always have stake back FIRST, and then the percentage.

      Meaning if you invest 1k (half buyin) and he walks off with 10k, then you first get back your 1k, and then 40% of the 8k= 3.2k , so in total you now have 4.2k (in this case it works out to a total of 42% equivalent).


      I agree with the poster who said that if you're going to be staking him often, that you should agree on makeup- if he loses buyin, it comes out of profit first next time, and then the stake return % is calculated on it..


      Finally, just as a note to you: I would be very wary of this deal.

      You say he's a great player and has proven himself, but doesn't have the money to play at these stakes.

      Has he proven himself on these stakes? How often has he played on these stakes? Has he ever played with someone else's money (not borrowed, but staked)? Most of these factors may cause him to play 'scared money' and therefore not at his best game- plus, there's likely to be better players as the limits go up.

      You say the 'local' games are really aggressive- how would he fare in this situation? How would he fare in a very aggressive game? Can he adapt?

      'Local' implies that there are regs- and when there are regs, there are sharks- as well as fish. The local game by me is typically 8 handed, with 5 sharks, 1 fish, myself and an 'average' player, who's just a rock.

      What kind of players are at this game?

      Last, but not least:
      You're staking him for a game he doesn't normally play, for a type of game he probably doesn't normally play, versus regs on a higher limit- so there's a good chance there will be good players there as well.. and all this...

      With ONE buyin!?!

      I never go to a live game with less than 3 buyins. Everyone can make mistakes, and everyone can get coolers. One 'small' mistake or cooler of QQ vs 2 pair or KK/AA on a low board, at the very least, will cost him 30-40% of his stack. Where does he go from here?

      If you're only staking part of his buyin, then he's probably only going in with one buyin..

      All of that aside, your money is at serious risk.

      And if you plan on staking him for 2 BI, then be prepared to expect more of a % back... i.e. if you and your friends stake him for a total of 2BI, then you should be receiving 85-90% back overall (If you stake 1 BI out of 2, then you should be getting 42-45% back.. also since you're essentially staking 50% of 2 separate BI).

      Anyway, staking players isn't as simple as it seems.

      Do your research, get some friends to stake 2-3BI and offer him 5%-10% of his profit until he proves himself- if you think he has a good chance at winning.

      If he's a good player, then 5%-10% can be a lot of money. Again, previous example: You and your friends stake 3BI at 2k each= 6k, he walks out with 10k plus the other 2BI that he didn't touch...

      You get the 6k back, and 90% of the 8k profit = $7,200.

      He walks out with $800, which is what he would be making on $200NL if he walked out with 5BI ($1,000) - except here, his money isn't at risk.

      Then as he proves himself, you can allow him to keep up to 20 or even 25% ...
    • Skibula
      Skibula
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.07.2008 Posts: 86
      Originally posted by cataah
      @all dudes who say that 50-50 is a fair deal
      imagine playerA pleys poker better than phill ivey but he has no money to play. He finds 2 friends who will give him money. Friend1 gives him 50% and as you say he should get 50% of the profit. Friend2 gives him 50% too and he shoul get 50% of the profit too.
      Then the player wins "ciuciu". Is that a fair deal?

      poker<>business
      In business if you invest 100$ and get 130$ next month (30$profit) that is a good invetment
      In poker if you invest 100$ you are expecting to win way more than 200$ (100$profit) in a month - if you dominate the limit you're playing as Skibula said his friend dominates the live games.

      and if we continue to compare poker with businesses:
      if you find a friend who whants to invest with you in a business and you put 50% and he puts 50% than a 50-50 deal is ok. But neither of you will do a thing - both of you will be home doing nothing. Or if you decide that your frined should take care of the business, he will sure have a salary - nobody works for free.

      In conclusion poker<>business and if in businesses a 50-50 looks ok, in poker could be diffrent

      (sorry for my english)

      @Skibula
      I think 25-20 is a fair deal. And if he is really good, than that colud be a nice deal for you.

      I have a question: how can you know he will not lie? ex: he wins 100$ in one night he comes home and says he won 80$
      you just trust him or you have tracking sisem or something?

      A) i trust him , he is a really good friend...
      b) we have treacking system.
      every game he will write down and we will see
      ofcurse he can lie about it
      but we have trust each other.. we gave loans and all was good u can say im naive.. but i really trust this person so this is not the issue :)


      also . he doesnt have the money by his own because he doesnt have a job and he never played pro mode..

      this is why i sponsor him

      he will sponsor 50%
      i will give 25%
      and another dude will give another 25%
      me and other dude will get 20%

      we go for big bank roll and we do this for 100 live games deal for now..
      (if he go broke then less then 100 :( .)


      for me, i feel 20% of 25% thats not that bad deal
      he own the stakes we talking about and im sure he will own higher lvls ( no proove for that yet...)

      any way he a good solid player with good stats and i think if with this bankroll he will give good score he will make poker his job.

      (as a friend i think he need to do that... )
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