Hu in 9man turbos

    • Firuminis
      Firuminis
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.07.2010 Posts: 54
      So I've been struggling with HU part of the game. I'm not sure what to blame, the sample is microscopic.. from 60 games I only managed to win 3 times, but I finished second 16 times. I don't know, maybe this is normal variance in turbos (played regulars before, and this never happened to me), but this is pretty scary to me, and I'm really starting to question my play. So now that I'm not confident in my game, I would really like to rebuild my knowledge of HU, so here goes..
      How should one approach the HU part?
      Should the pushes get looser?
      Should there be any min raising pre, if the stack is between 8 - 12BB ?
      Does the saying "any ace, any king and any pp is good HU" apply only to openings?


      Ok so I ran out of ideas... :) In general, it feels like I never played HU before, even if I have chip advantage I still somehow manage to lose. It's pretty frustrating, because if this goes on, then I obviously wont make any profit.
      So I don't know, I feel lost, and I feel like relearning HU.

      Any advice is appreciated.

      P.S. I've posted a few hands in the hand evaluations, so please check them out, thanks. :)
  • 7 replies
    • Hlynkinn
      Hlynkinn
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.06.2008 Posts: 4,998
      Like I said in one of your sample hands you should study SAGE and the "HeadsUp Push/Fold Nash Equilibrium"..

      Since your only basic member on this site you won't be able to read the strategy articles on this site about SAGE but I guess you could always google it =)
    • santostr
      santostr
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2009 Posts: 663
      HU is very very very opponent dependent.
      Usualy I min-raise when I have >13 BB.

      In push or fold I have a printed Nash chart next to me. I almost always push at least Nash, cause in general opponents call tighter.

      Calling is usualy tighter too, but it varies based on game flow. Example: Why bother making a close call when you can make very profitable pushes against the oponent...
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      I recommend using a Nash push/fold chart over the SAGE system. SAGE is more complicated than it is worth, since it is only supposed to be an approximation to the Nash equilibrium, and you can print out a Nash chart (or get my T-shirt).

      Either way, the pushing range is also useful from the small blind when you are not heads-up, as described in my video "The Golden Rule."

      It is hard to say much from a small sample. However, it would take extraordinarily bad play, sitting out, etc. to deserve to win only 3 out of 19 tournaments if you get to the heads-up stage with equal stacks. How you play once you get heads up is a surprisingly small factor. Much more important is how many chips you have when you start the heads-up phase. To win more tournaments, accumulate more chips earlier in the tournament, perhaps by being more aggressive on the bubble. If you average winning 55% of the time after getting heads up with an average of 50% of the chips, this means you have a huge skill advantage over your opponents. In part, this is because the 50% is an average of times that you had 90% or 10%, and then there was very little skill involved in determining whether the short stack doubled up twice or was eliminated.

      I plan to make a video on heads-up play over a range of stack depths, not just the push/fold portion. If you are not already very comfortable with heads-up play, I recommend playing push/fold up to 12 big blinds. That means no limping in and no minraising from the small blind. You will still have a significant advantage over many opponents if you play the Nash push/fold strategy from the small blind. Only give that up if you believe you can do better by trapping with AA, etc.

      You often can't call pushes with weaker offsuit kings, even against a Nash equilibrium pusher, and these can be large folds against more typical players who push a tighter range than they should. Although K2o is about even against a random hand, it is not even against a selective range which does not include trash hands like T2o. To call for 10 bb, you need 45% equity against the small blind's range, but K2o has under 40% equity against a 45% pushing range, and some of your opponents will be pushing even tighter ranges.
    • 8979687
      8979687
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2008 Posts: 2,225
      I hope I don't sound stupid here but how do you read those nash HU charts??

      To me it looks like if you are reading the pushing chart, you can push with 20 BBs with any A?
      And you can push K9os with 20 BBs but you need to be as low as 18 bbs for k8os?

      I would never push A2os for 20BBS in my life, but I guess the lower ranking starting hands are
      what you would use the chart for?
    • bradomurder
      bradomurder
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 1,329
      Originally posted by pzhon
      I recommend using a Nash push/fold chart over the SAGE system. SAGE is more complicated than it is worth, since it is only supposed to be an approximation to the Nash equilibrium, and you can print out a Nash chart (or get my T-shirt).

      Either way, the pushing range is also useful from the small blind when you are not heads-up, as described in my video "The Golden Rule."

      It is hard to say much from a small sample. However, it would take extraordinarily bad play, sitting out, etc. to deserve to win only 3 out of 19 tournaments if you get to the heads-up stage with equal stacks. How you play once you get heads up is a surprisingly small factor. Much more important is how many chips you have when you start the heads-up phase. To win more tournaments, accumulate more chips earlier in the tournament, perhaps by being more aggressive on the bubble. If you average winning 55% of the time after getting heads up with an average of 50% of the chips, this means you have a huge skill advantage over your opponents. In part, this is because the 50% is an average of times that you had 90% or 10%, and then there was very little skill involved in determining whether the short stack doubled up twice or was eliminated.

      I plan to make a video on heads-up play over a range of stack depths, not just the push/fold portion. If you are not already very comfortable with heads-up play, I recommend playing push/fold up to 12 big blinds. That means no limping in and no minraising from the small blind. You will still have a significant advantage over many opponents if you play the Nash push/fold strategy from the small blind. Only give that up if you believe you can do better by trapping with AA, etc.

      You often can't call pushes with weaker offsuit kings, even against a Nash equilibrium pusher, and these can be large folds against more typical players who push a tighter range than they should. Although K2o is about even against a random hand, it is not even against a selective range which does not include trash hands like T2o. To call for 10 bb, you need 45% equity against the small blind's range, but K2o has under 40% equity against a 45% pushing range, and some of your opponents will be pushing even tighter ranges.
      I'd love to see this video.

      I'll add something that helped me a heap:

      if the stacks are about 20bb (for example) and the guy open mins from BU almost 100% you can use a slightly tighter push range than the 10BB nash range from the BB (its as if the blinds were twice as high and you were SB)

      It always confused me how some people jammed over my minraises looser than they jammed open from sb
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Originally posted by 8979687
      I would never push A2os for 20BBS in my life, but I guess the lower ranking starting hands are
      what you would use the chart for?
      Yes, when you are heads-up, the main use is when you have up to about 12 big blinds. It is useful to know that you can push any two suited cards 4 or higher for 10 bb except 94s, for example.

      As I pointed out in my video "The Golden Rule," there are times when you can use the pushing chart when you are considering an open push from the small blind when you are not heads up. If there are more players at the table, then the big blind will have position on you postflop, and you may be risk-averse against resteals. These mean that larger open-pushes are more reasonable. There are times when you can push for 15 BB with a wide range, but you can't profitably make a small raise with a wide range.
    • santostr
      santostr
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2009 Posts: 663
      Yeah.. 20BB is too much for me. But I think I already pushed for 14-16BB with A2o from SB when there were more people at the table.