Basic question about Push-or-Fold

    • mktpppr
      mktpppr
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.07.2010 Posts: 1,307
      hi, i havent looked at ICM yet, only the 4 push-or-fold charts, i posted this as a comment in the Strategy SNG Push-or-Fold article:

      #40 RobertAdams, 16 Sep 10 09:47

      hi,i dont understand how to play push-or-fold in the Big Blind, eg:
      everyone folds to Small Blind who calls, you are in Big Blind with J2o (both of you have <13 big blinds)
      per the Big Blind rebound chart, you dont push, but do you:
      a) check? and what then? play the flop push-or-fold? you could check to river and then on the river only push-or-fold?
      b) fold???!!!
      thank you
      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      #41 RobertAdams, 16 Sep 10 09:48

      sorry,correction: point a) on river push-or-fold or check?
      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      #42 RobertAdams, 16 Sep 10 09:59

      hehe he :) i think i answered my own question: in example check as far as you can, fold otherwise
      what does everybody else think? cheers

      my question is not so much about ICM but more about the Big Blind play, thx
  • 4 replies
    • MiiWiin
      MiiWiin
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 01.03.2007 Posts: 64,649
      I moved it to the correct part of the forum. ;)
    • gedwashere91
      gedwashere91
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.07.2009 Posts: 2,387
      Robert, generally your reads on the person who limps will determine how loose you will push from the BB. Your stack size and the table dynamics (who is the big stack, are you on the bubble etc.) will all influence the decision too.

      One thing I would recommend: Throw out your push and fold charts immediately. Go use the ICM Trainer Full Version program from PokerStrategy. Keep using it til you get at least 90% correct. Then start playing again :D
    • mktpppr
      mktpppr
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.07.2010 Posts: 1,307
      thx for the move and the feedback guys, much appreciated
      @gedwashere91, since the original post i have improved my push-or-fold play

      when short-stacked late i still use the charts, i feel it still gives me the edge against $1 SNG players, but when leading late i forego the charts and i play on reads now (funny thing is it came about because i had trouble understanding dynamics if im >13BB and opponent(s) <13BB)

      but i agree with your advice: the push-or-fold charts are strictly for part-time beginners with a usefull life of 1-2 months tops (my personal experience)

      i'll be silver by next week and part of my new study material will be ICM

      once again, thx for the support from all at PokerStrategy, cheers
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      If the SB limps, then you can sometimes push from the big blind, and sometimes check.

      Pushing 10 bb (or more) at 1.5 bb in blinds makes sense preflop. One reason is that it is harder for hands to be large favorites over other hands preflop. Not many hands are even 60:40 favorites over a random hand, and even the worst trash like 72o or 32o has a lot of equity against a strong hand like AK. If you run into a better hand which has 70% equity against you, then you pay 10 bb and get back about 6 bb from the 20 bb pot on average, a net loss of 4 bb, not the whole 10 bb.

      After the flop, there are larger differences between hands. It is less commonly correct to bet much more than the pot. If you push 10 bb at a 2 bb pot, you might find yourself with 10% equity when you get called, so that you get back 2 bb on average for a loss of 8 bb. That means your push would need to pick up the small pot much more often for pushing to be better than folding, and checking is usually much better than folding.

      If your opponents do not play push-fold preflop, then you may have to play postflop even with a stack under 10 bb, and so you need to learn to evaluate hands and betting patterns postflop.