[NL20-NL50] KK in 4bet pot

    • Homart
      Homart
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.03.2009 Posts: 82
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.50(BB) Replayer
      SB ($67.15)
      BB ($81.45)
      Hero ($54.50)
      CO ($52.90)
      BTN ($14.10)

      Dealt to Hero K:heart: K:club:

      Hero raises to $1.50, fold, fold, fold, BB raises to $4.75, Hero raises to $12, BB calls $7.25

      FLOP ($24.25) 5:diamond: Q:spade: 6:diamond:

      BB checks, Hero checks

      TURN ($24.25) 5:diamond: Q:spade: 6:diamond: 4:spade:

      BB bets $7, Hero calls $7

      RIVER ($38.25) 5:diamond: Q:spade: 6:diamond: 4:spade: 6:heart:

      BB bets $21, Hero calls $21

      Villains stats: 20/13, agg 2.0, 3bet 6.1 over 200 hands.
      After he just called pf, I think his range is JJ+. On the river when he bets, he has either QQ or AA right?
      So I think there are two possible lines:
      1) As played, but fold on the river.
      2) Bet 1/2 pot on the flop and give up if he plays back.
      How would you play it? Thanks.
  • 8 replies
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      First, if BB had shoved over your 4b, you would have called, correct?
      So you have no problem going broke with KK pre.

      Now, you hit a flop with no Ace (great!) and villain checks to you. Just continuation bet the flop as normal. You are ahead here very often - dont be too paranoid.

      If villain raises you can make a decision (but I normally just bet/call here in 4b pot). By checking you just hand the initiative to him and give him chance to catch up when he has AK etc.

      In this case villain looks pretty tight so I agree that his range for calling your 4b oop is strong, but I think at this limit you should be aiming to get all your money in in this spot.
    • Chenghao
      Chenghao
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.10.2009 Posts: 274
      the stats that you need i think u need the call F 4bet vs raise PF 4bet , does he flat every single hand ? or will he 5bet shove QQ+ AK ? ( need to take notes for this)

      / preflop AF(not total AF)( if preflop AF is 0-1 , then high chances you are looking at a 3bet for value i think , if preflop AF is 1 and above , probably his doing so much lighter) /
      it will help you determine if its

      1) Villian 3 bets / call F 4bet for showdown value
      QQ+ , AK

      or

      2) villian light 3 bet / call F 4bet to hit the nuts ( 2 pair and above)
      QQ+ , AK , suited connectors , PP .

      over much more hands then 200 though.

      Flop : 5Q6d

      1) hands that beat you : QQ , AA
      hands that you beat : AKs
      hands that draw : KK

      2) hands that beat you : QQ AA , 56s , 55 , 66
      hands that you beat : 34s , 45s , 78 s + , AK , 77 - JJ ,
      hands that draw : KK

      on turn , 5Q64ds

      1) hands that beat you : QQ , AA
      hands that you beat : AKs
      hands that draw : KK

      2) hands that beat you : QQ AA , 56s , 78s , 55, 66
      hands that you beat : 34s , 45s , 89 s + , AKs , 77 - JJ ,
      hands that draw : KK

      on river , 5Q646R

      so the main question to answer is , did he light 3 bet you ?
      if he did then for 2) you should have bet the flop ,
      otherwise , his range for 1) that wins/loses you on the flop , doesn't change on the river.

      should i bet /fold or bet/call him down for 1) ?

      using combinatorics

      on a 5Q6 flop , with KK , his range is QQ + , AKs how often are you ahead or behind ?

      1) hands that beat you : QQ (3 - QdQh , QhQc , QcQd), AA (6 combinations , AdAs , AdAc , AdAh , AsAc , AsAh , AcAh)

      hands that you beat : AKs (the fact that you have 2 kings in your hand , this value drops to pretty low , unless u know he will do the same with AKo)

      2 combinations : AK spade , AK club.

      hands that draw : KK ( 1 combination , KsKc)

      out of the 12 hands that he has that 3bets for value , you only beat 2 and draw with 1 .

      if we change his range to QQ+ , AK o/s

      then

      1) hands that beat you : QQ (3 - QdQh , QhQc , QcQd), AA (6 combinations , AdAs , AdAc , AdAh , AsAc , AsAh , AcAh)

      hands that you beat : AK (8 combinations)

      hands that draw : KK ( 1 combination , KsKc)

      so just by including AKo , the number of hands you beat go up to 8 , the number of hands you are behind : 9.


      if his range include AQs then


      then

      1) hands that beat you : QQ (3 - QdQh , QhQc , QcQd), AA (6 combinations , AdAs , AdAc , AdAh , AsAc , AsAh , AcAh)

      hands that you beat : AK (8 combinations) , AQs ( 3 combinations)

      hands that draw : KK ( 1 combination , KsKc)

      so just by including AKo and AQs , the number of hands you beat go up to 12 , the number of hands you are behind : 9.

      i would gather more information about :

      1) how he plays AQs , AKo , AKs , QQ + , 22-JJs , suited connectors OOP

      and of course 2) IP

      with more information about him , then i can make a better decision.

      So after this hand , note down his preflop tendencies :what is the hand that he 3bet/flat preflop . note down too his postflop tendencies: 1/4 the pot on the turn ( is such a small bet meant to not chase you away ? or cos he turned a flush draw ?) , pot sized bet on the river ( does he PSB with missed flush draw ? or knowing that you called his turn bet , you have a strong enough hand to call a river PSB )
    • Chenghao
      Chenghao
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.10.2009 Posts: 274
      As played ,

      if i have not seen opponent check raise at any point ,

      as played , i would go for pot control , i would bet the flop IP , then check the turn then reevaluate the river.

      this is done so that

      1) hands that beat you : QQ , AA , it will cost you less to showdown with these.
      hands that you beat : AKs you give AKs a chance to take a shot at the pot
      hands that draw : KK , it will cost you less to showdown with these.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      I would personally b/c flop since I don´t really want to give AK free card. if you think you might induce bluffs from worse hands then check back flop and calldown is fine. You´re likely only afraid there A, but once you call it also seems weak so he can easily barrel river with air
      I would not fold river. you´re just ahead too often and he can easily shove there for value with AQ
    • Chenghao
      Chenghao
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.10.2009 Posts: 274
      Originally posted by Kaitz20
      I would personally b/c flop since I don´t really want to give AK free card. if you think you might induce bluffs from worse hands then check back flop and calldown is fine. You´re likely only afraid there A, but once you call it also seems weak so he can easily barrel river with air
      I would not fold river. you´re just ahead too often and he can easily shove there for value with AQ
      what about if he had more stats ? what stats do you think he can use in combination with the way the hand unfolds
    • DecMate
      DecMate
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.01.2009 Posts: 939
      Once he calls a 4B you have to go broke on that flop.
      Wasn't a good check at all, just bet/broke if he has QQ it's a cooler but his 4B flatting range could include AQ. Just get it in.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Originally posted by Chenghao
      Originally posted by Kaitz20
      I would personally b/c flop since I don´t really want to give AK free card. if you think you might induce bluffs from worse hands then check back flop and calldown is fine. You´re likely only afraid there A, but once you call it also seems weak so he can easily barrel river with air
      I would not fold river. you´re just ahead too often and he can easily shove there for value with AQ
      what about if he had more stats ? what stats do you think he can use in combination with the way the hand unfolds
      against 20/13 you never can fold postflop since there are just too much money in the pot and you have 1.75 potsize left. You can´t really put someone exactly on QQ or AA an then fold river once you check back flop and call turn bet
      He can easily play that way AQ/AK or even if he flat pf TT/JJ thinking you have there AK
    • Homart
      Homart
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.03.2009 Posts: 82
      Hi, thanks for comments
      Originally posted by Tim64
      First, if BB had shoved over your 4b, you would have called, correct?
      So you have no problem going broke with KK pre.
      Yeah I would definitely go broke pf.

      I don't like my line, because I represent AK, as Kaitz said. Actually I wanted to do that, just to induce something from villain with JJ, maybe AK. Therefore I didn't fold on the river.

      But I really didn't want to b/c on that flop. How many people call 4bet oop with AQ? Villain seemed to be an abc reg, so without AQ in his range (or very rarely), could it be b/f flop?