Razz odds and blind defense?

    • alenstrat
      alenstrat
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.03.2009 Posts: 821
      I was wondering how or if to defend blinds on razz. My general feeling would tell me that if you have smooth trash from the bringin position ie K32 vs. one stealer, with all the dead money in the pot, you virtually get a must cold call, and probably even odds to call on 4th street if you get a 3rd low card. Your hand is probably not that far behind equitywise vs. your opponents average holding.

      So, is it possible to make these equity calculations in razz to determine if such a call is possible?

      For example to make the numbers round. You're playing 1/2 razz.

      So the pot would be :
      Your bringin 0.40 + 1.60 antes + opponents bet 1.00 = $3.00 you barely have to call $0.60 into a $3.60 pot = 17% equity (if equity can be calculated in Razz)

      And K23 definitely is probably 40% at least equity vs. your opponents average holding that shows a A-4 door card, in particular if he's stealing like 100%.

      And on the 4th street assuming you get another good card, you only have to call $1 into a $5.60 pot to see the next card = 18% equity

      On 5th street, if you have 4 good cards, you have to call $2 in $9.60 = 21% equity. And here you can actually make a simple equity calculation, which I don't know if it was possible or how to in the previous streets.

      So, assuming at this point you have something like K2347, assuming there were no dead low cards except villain on 3rd street, and that your 74 high or low, however it's called in Razz, is better then villains visible board, and that he's holding 2 of your outs, you have 4 A outs + 4 5 outs + 4 6 outs - 2 outs = 10 outs/38 unknown cards = you have 26% equity. Which makes the call + EV.

      And on 6th street, you get an even clearer call if your hand looks good, since you get $2/$13.60 = 15% equity to call and still have the same 26%.

      Sorry if this is all confusing. But I actually did this and won a big pot. I want to know if this thinking is correct or if I'm basing all this calculation on a false premise. Ie, the important thing would be to know if there is some way to calculate equity to call on 3 and 4th streets, to know if it's correct mathematically to keep drawing.

      I guess, as is obvious, opponent reads go into consideration. If villain is very steal capable or stealing 100% of chances, I think some consideration should be given to defending the blinds if it's mathematically +EV.
  • 5 replies
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      There are tons of tools for calculating your equity in Razz. I use this one:

      http://www.propokertools.com/simulations

      If you're asking for something that calcs hand ranges I'm sorry for missing the point! In that case I'd just run some sims to get an idea.
    • alenstrat
      alenstrat
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.03.2009 Posts: 821
      Originally posted by Waiboy
      There are tons of tools for calculating your equity in Razz. I use this one:

      http://www.propokertools.com/simulations

      If you're asking for something that calcs hand ranges I'm sorry for missing the point! In that case I'd just run some sims to get an idea.
      Thanks, I'll take a look. LOL, maybe I should have started by searching the net, but since Razz is like no mans land here in PS I had the feeling there was little or nothing available to make calculations.

      Regardless, I'd like to know what other people thing about the proposed topic, is it possible to defend blinds in Razz, or having even a smooth K, you automatically rule out further participation in the hand, just because of the K? When does one defend in such a situation, starting from a smooth 9? Smooth 10? And with rough starting hands, where does one start to defend, rough 8? Rough 7?
    • ferrosy
      ferrosy
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2010 Posts: 11
      In third street Razz play, the opponents door cards are crucial.

      You don't give us dead cards (did the guys that already folded had 2's or 3's showing? Or had they cards you needed?)

      Was the "stealer" the last guy before you? Did he bet into any low cards? Lets say yes to the first or at least no to the second.

      The only moment you consider defending your bring in is when you are last to act, against a single opponent who would have raised with any two cards. You also must have two small cards and would much prefer to have duplicates to those cards showing on the board and none of the cards you need dead.

      Hot/Cold equity, or showdon equity is usually not enough to base a decision on. The problem is that even though the current pot odds are enough, future bets are going in at 1:1, and that will degrade your "effective" odds. Barry greenstein explains this very well!

      Depending on the relative sizes of antes, bring-in and small-bet, you may have 4:1 odds to call.
      In that case, your call is automatic if you have two low cards (say two 6 or lower), because you have about 1:4 of catching a baby and seeing your opponent brick on 4th street. You fold if that does not happen. If it does you bet and can either get the pot right now if he was indeed stealing, or have enough equity to fight for the hand if he wasnt.
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Originally posted by ferrosy
      In third street Razz play, the opponents door cards are crucial.

      You don't give us dead cards (did the guys that already folded had 2's or 3's showing? Or had they cards you needed?)

      Was the "stealer" the last guy before you? Did he bet into any low cards? Lets say yes to the first or at least no to the second.

      The only moment you consider defending your bring in is when you are last to act, against a single opponent who would have raised with any two cards. You also must have two small cards and would much prefer to have duplicates to those cards showing on the board and none of the cards you need dead.

      Hot/Cold equity, or showdon equity is usually not enough to base a decision on. The problem is that even though the current pot odds are enough, future bets are going in at 1:1, and that will degrade your "effective" odds. Barry greenstein explains this very well!

      Depending on the relative sizes of antes, bring-in and small-bet, you may have 4:1 odds to call.
      In that case, your call is automatic if you have two low cards (say two 6 or lower), because you have about 1:4 of catching a baby and seeing your opponent brick on 4th street. You fold if that does not happen. If it does you bet and can either get the pot right now if he was indeed stealing, or have enough equity to fight for the hand if he wasnt.
      Solid first post. :s_thumbsup:
    • RainmanTrail
      RainmanTrail
      Basic
      Joined: 15.05.2010 Posts: 24
      Originally posted by ferrosy
      In third street Razz play, the opponents door cards are crucial.

      You don't give us dead cards (did the guys that already folded had 2's or 3's showing? Or had they cards you needed?)

      Was the "stealer" the last guy before you? Did he bet into any low cards? Lets say yes to the first or at least no to the second.

      The only moment you consider defending your bring in is when you are last to act, against a single opponent who would have raised with any two cards. You also must have two small cards and would much prefer to have duplicates to those cards showing on the board and none of the cards you need dead.

      Hot/Cold equity, or showdon equity is usually not enough to base a decision on. The problem is that even though the current pot odds are enough, future bets are going in at 1:1, and that will degrade your "effective" odds. Barry greenstein explains this very well!

      Depending on the relative sizes of antes, bring-in and small-bet, you may have 4:1 odds to call.
      In that case, your call is automatic if you have two low cards (say two 6 or lower), because you have about 1:4 of catching a baby and seeing your opponent brick on 4th street. You fold if that does not happen. If it does you bet and can either get the pot right now if he was indeed stealing, or have enough equity to fight for the hand if he wasnt.
      +1

      I was just about to reply with the same link to Barry Gs article. Well said and thanks for saving me time :)