Nash vs SAGE

    • oblitron
      oblitron
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.01.2010 Posts: 238
      Would you agree that the SAGE Power Index system is an over-simplified version of Nash and that one should consult the Nash ranges tables whenever possible instead of using the SAGE PI system?

      To give one extreme example, according to the Nash tables you should push 54s from the small blind with any effective stack (up to 20), whereas according to SAGE you should always fold it. This difference between the two systems applies to many situations, especially with low suited connectors or suited one-gappers.
  • 6 replies
    • santostr
      santostr
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2009 Posts: 663
      Either one is just a starting point. You should adapt to your opponent a bit anyway.
      Pick the one it's easyer to you.

      I prefer Nash. I just have a printed chart on my desk...
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      I agree that SAGE is an approximation to Nash. When you play online, you can just use a Nash equilibrium chart, and so I don't see a reason to use SAGE instead of Nash.

      If a new player is about to play Chris Ferguson in heads-up live play, and you have to tell him something, SAGE may be simpler to explain or easier to remember than the Nash equilibrium, but I have never used it. Since I have played so much while looking at the Nash chart (in a book by my side, or on my desktop wallpaper, or bookmarked in a web browser, or on a T-shirt) I remember the pushing values quite well without using approximations. For example, you can push any two cards 9 or higher for 20 big blinds, and any two suited 6 or higher except J6s. 76o is a push for just over 10 big blinds, while 65o is not a Nash push for 3 big blinds.

      It is a little less valuable to remember the Nash calling ranges, since those are not used in Golden Rule shoves, and many opponents are pushing too tightly. However, I also remember particular references such as that Q9o, Q7s, K5o, and K2s are marginal Nash calls for 10 bb.

      I recommend watching the semifinal of the 2009 National Heads-Up Championship between Farha and Seed to see that knowing the proper push/fold strategy matters a lot in practice. You can see this on Hulu: Part 1 Part 2. Huck Seed had done his homework, and Sam Farha had not. When it became clear that Farha was not following the Nash calling strategy, Huck Seed made some small deviations from the Nash pushing strategy, and had a huge advantage.
    • oblitron
      oblitron
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.01.2010 Posts: 238
      Thank you both for your answers! I'll definitely check out the match recommended by Phzon and I also like the idea of wearing a Nash chart on a t-shirt at a live tournament (obviously printed upside down so only you can read it). :P
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Originally posted by oblitron
      I also like the idea of wearing a Nash chart on a t-shirt at a live tournament (obviously printed upside down so only you can read it). :P
      Here is the T-shirt printed that way.

      For live tournaments, it may be better to wear one of the HUD shirts instead until you get HU.

      Btw, I have to update the web page. The printer now ships outside North America.
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Originally posted by pzhon
      Originally posted by oblitron
      I also like the idea of wearing a Nash chart on a t-shirt at a live tournament (obviously printed upside down so only you can read it). :P
      Here is the T-shirt printed that way.
      Nice. Just nice. :f_cool:
    • maritsula
      maritsula
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.12.2011 Posts: 905
      Thanks pzhon for the video reccomendation, it is an excellent practical demonstration of the nash equilibirum chart for pushing and calling when your under 20 BB.
      It was very surpising to see Farha fold K10s twice after Seed shoved on him, a major error as Seed was obviously shoving with a wide range. Most people will assume that Seed shouldnt have called Farha's all in as he was holding 108s but even if he knew Farha's hole card (AKo) this would still mathematically correct.


      For anyone playing sng seriously I stongly reccomend using the nash equilibrium chart in the HU phase of the SNG and even in SB v BB.