Sng questions, odds/equity/etc.

    • Stevos1938
      Stevos1938
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.02.2009 Posts: 270
      Some questions i have with sng's.

      1) What are the (pot) odds i need to call a preflop raise with a small pocketpair?
      Or how big of a pot do i have to win to make that call profitable ?

      2) I read that when you enter the late game of a sng there's an increased
      penalty for calling pushes too light.
      I read that in order to play break even, you can only call a late game push if your hand has 60% equity against the opponents shoving range.
      When your on the bubble you need about 65% equity ( if the stacksizes are similar )

      Is this true ?
      Why do i need 60/65% equity to play break even ? Why not 51% ?

      3) What is a good method to learn which hands to push?
      I sometimes review my hands and pratice the quiz in ICM trainer but i have a hard time remembering everything. ( what hand can i push, what are the stacks, blinds,etc.)
  • 3 replies
    • SSSC2NV
      SSSC2NV
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.03.2009 Posts: 136
      Great questions, I look forward to the answers!

      Sorry I couldnt help.. would rather a pro chime with the correct answers, instead of my makeshift ones.. LOL
    • lennonac
      lennonac
      Global
      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 1,421
      1)
      20-1 is a good guideline, real odds of hitting a set are 9-1 or 8-1 I cant remember. We use the 20-1 or sometimes 15-1 if the player is loose is because you won't stack someone evertime you hit your set.

      2)
      I will let pzhon answer this as basically it is a long winded answer and im too lazy :f_biggrin:

      3)
      review games with friends and use sit n go wiz is the best way. You wont be able to learn it all noone can but you can get pretty close it just takes some time
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Originally posted by Stevos1938
      1) What are the (pot) odds i need to call a preflop raise with a small pocketpair?
      Or how big of a pot do i have to win to make that call profitable ?
      This is complicated. Set-mining depends on a lot of factors, not just how often you will hit a set. You will not always get paid off, and you can sometimes win without hitting a set. The height of the pair, the type of opponent you have, his range from that position and whether you have position matter.

      If you only play for set value, then you may find that you will lose chips with low pocket pairs outside the blinds. Do not confuse how much fun it is to stack someone with a disguised monster with profitability.

      It is much more commonly correct to overcall for set value than to call.

      2) I read that when you enter the late game of a sng there's an increased
      penalty for calling pushes too light.
      I read that in order to play break even, you can only call a late game push if your hand has 60% equity against the opponents shoving range.
      When your on the bubble you need about 65% equity ( if the stacksizes are similar )

      Is this true ?
      Why do i need 60/65% equity to play break even ? Why not 51% ?
      You should be risk-averse because doubling up does not double your share of second place and third place. If there are 4 equal stacks, you should have a 25% chance to place first, second, and third, and you expect to get 25% of the prize pool on average. If you double up, the Independent Chip Model (ICM) says that you will place 1st 50%, 2nd 33.3%, and 3rd 16.7%. That gives you 38.3% of the prize pool.

      So, if there are somehow no blinds, then calling all-in with 4 equal stacks means that you risk 25% of the prize pool to gain 38.3-25 = 13.3% of the prize pool. You need 25/38.3 = 65% equity for that to be a good gamble.

      If you ignore the risk aversion from the prize structure, then you will take first more often, but you will not get your fair share of second and third places.

      I went through a similar example in my video "Calling All-In." You can study risk aversion in SNGs with my program ICM Explorer. Since the stacks are usually not equal, there are many different situations which can occur on the bubble, and you may be much more risk averse against one player than against another.


      3) What is a good method to learn which hands to push?
      I sometimes review my hands and pratice the quiz in ICM trainer but i have a hard time remembering everything. ( what hand can i push, what are the stacks, blinds,etc.)
      ICM Trainer is a great start. It is not everything, but it gives your opponents ranges which reflect how risk-averse players are. A related tool is the Nash equilibrium calculator on HoldemResources.net. SNG Wizard is a good tool once you know how to adjust the ranges for your opponents. If you use the default ranges, SNG Wizard can damage your game.