Banned from Pokerstars - Advice needed

    • KeKNoRRiS
      KeKNoRRiS
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.10.2007 Posts: 51
      Hi all,

      I'm creating this topic to gain advise on something that has recently happened to me.

      Last week, I was unable to log in on my pokerstars account. After mailing their support and recieving their answer, I was flabbergasted.

      I got the following:
      1. Someone logged in from a foreign location
      2. Said person made 3 deposits using a stolen credit card
      3. Said person lost all the money (1500 dollar)


      No account information was changed, therefore they say my email was hacked and the person deleted the payment confirmations from my inbox.

      I didn't notice this, because my account had been inactive for more than a year.

      Now Pokerstars says it is my responsibility, even though they know it wasn't me who committed fraud. They say that due to their terms and conditions, I am responsible for everything that happens on my account and should therefore pay the 1500 dollar to regain acces to my account.

      How on earth is this possible?

      Why am I responsible for someone hijacking my account and then using a stolen card on it? Isn't it pokerstars responsibility to check for fraud with credit card payments?

      I mean:
      1. The account was accessed from a foreign location
      2. A credit card with a name not resembling mine was used to make a deposit
      3. I never used a credit card to make a deposit before
      4. I never deposited more than 50 dollars


      Shouldn't that ring the alarm bells?

      Besides, the person could've made a new account with the same ease and pokerstars would've lost the money as well.

      Why am I now responsible for this "debt"? They allready admitted they know I didn't do it and that only my account was used.

      I'm allready exchanging emails with the pokerstars security team, but they take for ever to reply and I'm really angry about this. Does someone out here have any experience with such matters? Am I really legally responsible for this "debt"?

      Any input is appreciated. Sorry for rambling about this, but I had to get this off my chest.
  • 25 replies
    • ihufa
      ihufa
      Gold
      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 3,323
      pay up. It's the right thing to do
    • Atoks
      Atoks
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2008 Posts: 1,354
      I'm sure there's no way for them to actually hold u accountable for whatever happened (unless they have some sort of proof u are the culprit in which case u probably can't be helped ALSO AND I CAN'T STRESS THIS ENOUGH, I'M NO LAWYER OR LAW EXPERT!!!). I'd say it's important for u to keep a cool head and read everything they send u several times over and take ur time replying to them. Account hacking and abuse is always a touchy subject in online gambling but if u manage these things correctly and calmly I'm sure u'll be able to come to a reasonable solution.
    • Ribbo
      Ribbo
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2010 Posts: 6,157
      Pokerstars are well within their right to bar you from using the software for any reason they see fit. I imagine in this case they are protecting themselves from people who commit fraud on their own account then claim "someone else did it".

      No, I don't believe you are liable for the fraud, but you are liable to keep your account protected. :)

      So I'm guessing they want a compromise where they will allow you to keep playing if you return the money they lost through your negligence to keep your account secure.
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      My advice is to not use the same password on your email and your PokerStars account.
    • Jackalof
      Jackalof
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.06.2008 Posts: 1,462
      You think that's heavy? Check this out!

      We have received a complaint regarding your use of inappropriate language at our tables. After reviewing the chat log (see below), it was decided to warn you.


      Chat observed:
      Jackalof
      its because of your grandpa forcing you to swallow? 2 2010-10-03 13:55:18
    • 8979687
      8979687
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2008 Posts: 2,225
      Originally posted by Ribbo
      Pokerstars are well within their right to bar you from using the software for any reason they see fit. I imagine in this case they are protecting themselves from people who commit fraud on their own account then claim "someone else did it".

      No, I don't believe you are liable for the fraud, but you are liable to keep your account protected. :)

      So I'm guessing they want a compromise where they will allow you to keep playing if you return the money they lost through your negligence to keep your account secure.
      This is the part as OP said is the easy fix though.

      IDK about you but I can not even goto a local store and use a $100 bill or even a $20 without it
      being put under a "UV" type light so the cashier can ensure it is a legit bill.

      Poker Stars needs to stop allowing people to make deposits from CCs that are not in the account holders name
      or put a safety net in place.

      Someone from sweden wants to deposit into an account registered in the USA under a completely
      different account name on the CC from the account holder on PokerStarsd and from an IP address
      nowhere near anywhere the account holder has ever logged in from.

      Come one this is a no brainer just suspend the transaction untill the ID can be verified. Ask for both
      the photo ID of the PokerStars account holder AND the CC holder to be emailed in to verify they are
      both involved and legit.

      I think this hassle would be worth it for me if it meant there was 0 possibility for me to log in to
      my account and find out I owe $$$$$$$ and lots of it because this safety net is not in place.
    • justkyle88
      justkyle88
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 7,596
      The thing I don't understand is why you owe $1,5k.
      How does paying PokerStars $1,5k have anything with being able to use your account?
      It's not like the guy stole $1,5k from Stars....He lost it! Hence PokerStars Clients are $1,5k the richer.
    • AussieIan
      AussieIan
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.12.2007 Posts: 366
      Kyle....i think it may be because VISA has built in insurance in that if your card gets stolen and used and you can show that, then you get your money back. Good for the cardholder, but i believe the store (or Pokerstars in this case) dont get the cash at their end. So a store would lose stock, or PS in this case would lose the money as it's already in other peoples accounts.
    • noclaninator
      noclaninator
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.12.2008 Posts: 312
      You got banned from the software with all the toughest players? How horrible! Now you can play against the softer competition of.... well any other poker site.
    • justkyle88
      justkyle88
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 7,596
      Originally posted by AussieIan
      Kyle....i think it may be because VISA has built in insurance in that if your card gets stolen and used and you can show that, then you get your money back. Good for the cardholder, but i believe the store (or Pokerstars in this case) dont get the cash at their end. So a store would lose stock, or PS in this case would lose the money as it's already in other peoples accounts.
      So PokerStars thinks KeKNoRRiS stole the credit card?
    • lennonac
      lennonac
      Global
      Joined: 02.05.2009 Posts: 1,421
      There is always more to these stories
    • AussieIan
      AussieIan
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.12.2007 Posts: 366
      Originally posted by justkyle88
      Originally posted by AussieIan
      Kyle....i think it may be because VISA has built in insurance in that if your card gets stolen and used and you can show that, then you get your money back. Good for the cardholder, but i believe the store (or Pokerstars in this case) dont get the cash at their end. So a store would lose stock, or PS in this case would lose the money as it's already in other peoples accounts.
      So PokerStars thinks KeKNoRRiS stole the credit card?
      Not at all.....but pokerstars are $1500 out of pocket (NOT $1500 richer) due to the transactions on his account, that's why they want the money. I was just explaining to you that stars is actually out of pocket for the amount, rather than having the money as you thought they might....

      i think it's their view that the problem came from his account and is therefore his reponsibility, even though he's done nothing wrong. Harsh, but no doubt in the terms and conditions somewhere.....
    • AlCaTrAzzALZ
      AlCaTrAzzALZ
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.05.2008 Posts: 726
      Step 1. Visit http://www.pokerstrategy.com/online-poker-rooms/

      Step 2. Sign up for a different site

      Step 3. Profit!
    • Chenghao
      Chenghao
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.10.2009 Posts: 274
      its part of Pokerstar's overall strategy anyway

      they loosen up their requirements to deposit ( lower verification requirements)

      in order to make it easy for people to deposit.


      If say they were to beef up their security requirements.

      like using any of the MFA

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-factor_authentication

      For example, US Federal regulators consistently recognize three authentication factors:

      "Existing authentication methodologies involve three basic “factors”:
      • Something the user knows (e.g., password, PIN);
      • Something the user has (e.g., ATM card, smart card); and
      • Something the user is (e.g., biometric characteristic, such as a fingerprint).
      Authentication methods that depend on more than one factor are more difficult to compromise than single-factor methods." (FFIEC)

      Other factors include : where the user is at ( GPS / Nationality boundaries )

      While it can increase security , it will cost more and its troublesome ( hence deterring those who may or may not play online.

      It would be no problem to those who really want to play and those who don't wanna play but those mariginal cases would be deterred

      Those who are gold and above VIP scheme should get at least their OTP device

      http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/features/security/token/

      To prevent things like this from happening
    • KeKNoRRiS
      KeKNoRRiS
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.10.2007 Posts: 51
      Thanks for the many replies, send a reply to their last mail yesterday, so it's waiting time again.

      Originally posted by Atoks
      I'm sure there's no way for them to actually hold u accountable for whatever happened (unless they have some sort of proof u are the culprit in which case u probably can't be helped ALSO AND I CAN'T STRESS THIS ENOUGH, I'M NO LAWYER OR LAW EXPERT!!!). I'd say it's important for u to keep a cool head and read everything they send u several times over and take ur time replying to them. Account hacking and abuse is always a touchy subject in online gambling but if u manage these things correctly and calmly I'm sure u'll be able to come to a reasonable solution.
      This is what I'm trying to do, I'm reasoning with them that indeed my account is my responisiblity, but that I have no control or whatsoever over deposits someone makes and that this can't be my responsibility. (But if they took the money allready in my account, it would be my fault and my loss)

      Pokerstars are well within their right to bar you from using the software for any reason they see fit. I imagine in this case they are protecting themselves from people who commit fraud on their own account then claim "someone else did it".
      Ofcourse they are, but I don't think this is very costumor friendly to do. Besides, the guy from the pokerstars team admitted that they know it wasn't me!

      The thing I don't understand is why you owe $1,5k.
      How does paying PokerStars $1,5k have anything with being able to use your account?
      It's not like the guy stole $1,5k from Stars....He lost it! Hence PokerStars Clients are $1,5k the richer.

      AussieIan is right about this. The company that took the payment is responsible for it by law and has to pay the credit card company back. This is to protect the costumors and the credit card companies and force the recieving company to take every measure possible.

      What pokerstars basically did was that the 1500 dollars that they had to return to the rightfull owner, has been put as a negative balance on my account to cover this. As a negative balance is not allowed, my account cannot be used and I have to "top it up" in order to play.

      I know I can play any other room and that I only lost like 50 dollars currently in the account, but I don't feel like I'm being treated honestly and fair. Mainly because if the fraudulent person created a new account, the same would've happened, without them having someone to blame for.

      I would buy the OTP devices, but I'm still a small volume low stakes player, so this is not obtainable for me.
    • Chenghao
      Chenghao
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.10.2009 Posts: 274
      you don't need to buy them , u can claim them if u have enough FPP

      the risk - effort balance probably kicks in after you are playing at higher stakes , then u need to spend that extra bit of effort to log in securely
    • Ribbo
      Ribbo
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2010 Posts: 6,157
      Originally posted by 8979687

      Someone from sweden wants to deposit into an account registered in the USA under a completely different account name on the CC from the account holder on PokerStars and from an IP address nowhere near anywhere the account holder has ever logged in from.

      Come one this is a no brainer just suspend the transaction untill the ID can be verified. Ask for both the photo ID of the PokerStars account holder AND the CC holder to be emailed in to verify they are both involved and legit.
      The problem with this is a lot of poker players travel regularly. Banning someone from logging in because its a totally different IP address would stop all the professional players who are travelling to a poker tournament.

      I agree in principle to what you're saying, but in practice it just creates problems for their customer service in additional hours spent sorting crap out.
    • tcs35
      tcs35
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.01.2009 Posts: 3,583
      Originally posted by justkyle88
      The thing I don't understand is why you owe $1,5k.
      How does paying PokerStars $1,5k have anything with being able to use your account?
      It's not like the guy stole $1,5k from Stars....He lost it! Hence PokerStars Clients are $1,5k the richer.
      The original owner will make a chargeback and they won't have the $1,5k anymore.
    • KeKNoRRiS
      KeKNoRRiS
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.10.2007 Posts: 51
      Originally posted by Ribbo
      Originally posted by 8979687

      Someone from sweden wants to deposit into an account registered in the USA under a completely different account name on the CC from the account holder on PokerStars and from an IP address nowhere near anywhere the account holder has ever logged in from.

      Come one this is a no brainer just suspend the transaction untill the ID can be verified. Ask for both the photo ID of the PokerStars account holder AND the CC holder to be emailed in to verify they are both involved and legit.
      The problem with this is a lot of poker players travel regularly. Banning someone from logging in because its a totally different IP address would stop all the professional players who are travelling to a poker tournament.

      I agree in principle to what you're saying, but in practice it just creates problems for their customer service in additional hours spent sorting crap out.
      Offcourse, but if there is a payment from an unkown credit card with a different name than the account owners, from a different IP some alarm bells should ring no?
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