[NL2-NL10] AKs misses at the flop

    • aaccw
      aaccw
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 55
      $25 USD NL Texas Holdem
      Seat 1 is the button
      Total number of players : 6
      Seat 3: Klot88 ( $58.97 USD )
      Seat 6: LoserByNatur ( $31.86 USD )
      Seat 5: HERO ( $23.06 USD )
      Seat 2: MrDario ( $17.11 USD )
      Seat 4: Balyberda ( $23.25 USD )
      Seat 1: jbvdz ( $26.34 USD )
      MrDario posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
      Klot88 posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
      ** Dealing down cards **
      Dealt to HERO [ Kh Ah ]
      Balyberda folds
      HERO raises [$0.75 USD]
      LoserByNatur folds
      jbvdz raises [$2.25 USD]
      MrDario folds
      Klot88 folds
      HERO raises [$4.25 USD]
      jbvdz calls [$2.75 USD]
      ** Dealing Flop ** [ Td, 8c, 9s ]
      HERO bets [$10 USD]
      jbvdz is all-In [$21.34 USD]
      HERO is all-In [$8.06 USD]
      ** Dealing Turn ** [ 7d ]
      ** Dealing River ** [ 2h ]

      Results below in white (paint over with u mouse to view):
      HERO shows [ Kh, Ah ]high card Ace.
      jbvdz shows [ Th, Ts ]three of a kind, Tens.
      jbvdz wins $3.28 USD from side pot #1 with three of a kind, Tens.
      jbvdz wins $44.15 USD from the main pot with three of a kind, Tens.


      So... I guess my cbet was still correct (or I guess 1/2 pot should have been enough as the pot was already so big), but how about going All-In?

      Should AKs be treated at a totally missed flop just like any other two overcards ie. cbet and fold if a substantial re-raise comes or is there some other justification of continuing flop hardball up to A-I with it?

      Looking at this afterwards my logic says cbet 1/2 pot and ditch to heavy resistance!

      Comments really well appreciated!
      :spade: wannabe jr
  • 11 replies
    • helemaalnicks
      helemaalnicks
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.09.2007 Posts: 7,195
      hello,

      I think you put yourself in a sticky situation there m8. Your bet on the flop was ok, but immediately made you potcommited. I think your preflopreraise was wrong. If you would've flatcalled the guy for 1.50, the pot would've been 2.25+2.25+0.25+0.10 = 4.85. Your flopbet would've been 3$ in this situation, and prevents that you are potcommited with the tricky bigslick hand, something I like to prevent. So I advice you to play the big slick a little bit more conservative. This is also what sss says about AK, don't reraise untill the end, make sure you have fold equity on the flop. You would've lost this hand against a lot of hands, and AK is not a favourite against any pair, and only slightly favourite against any two cards, not A or K. So this hand is not a "raise no matter what hand", but rather a "try to hit tptk, or a monsterdraw" type of hand.

      I Hope i helped.

      btw. Your initial raise was ok, you might have tried to do this for 1$, but it's ok. This is because you are favourite against most hands. However, the other guy played better, because he called for potcontrol preflop, and would've faced an easy fold with any overcards on the flop.
    • aaccw
      aaccw
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 55
      Originally posted by helemaalnicks
      hello,
      This is also what sss says about AK, don't reraise untill the end, make sure you have fold equity on the flop. You would've lost this hand against a lot of hands, and AK is not a favourite against any pair, and only slightly favourite against any two cards, not A or K. So this hand is not a "raise no matter what hand", but rather a "try to hit tptk, or a monsterdraw" type of hand.

      I Hope i helped.

      btw. Your initial raise was ok, you might have tried to do this for 1$, but it's ok. This is because you are favourite against most hands. However, the other guy played better, because he called for potcontrol preflop, and would've faced an easy fold with any overcards on the flop.
      So... AKs ain't a 4bet hand preflop? As is AA if I understand correctly? Further this advice is for shorthanded. I've come to understand TPTK is actually a marginal hand in SHNL and should not be continued to call with if the implied odds don't allow it.
    • helemaalnicks
      helemaalnicks
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.09.2007 Posts: 7,195
      So... AKs ain't a 4bet hand preflop? As is AA if I understand correctly? Further this advice is for shorthanded. I've come to understand TPTK is actually a marginal hand in SHNL and should not be continued to call with if the implied odds don't allow it.


      I don't know about the TPTK stuff, that higly depends, i guess. All i know is that AA KK and QQ are a whole different category then Ako/s. AKs makes you want to hit:
      nutflush
      nutstraight
      top two pair
      top set
      TPTK

      And the problem with reraising (not raising, only reraising) is, that you don't know what the flop will bring you, and that AK has far less then 50% chance to hit the flop, and if you miss, you are screwed. You want to raise, to isolate, or to steal, but there is no use in reraising against one opponent, because you know he is not going to fold, otherwise he wouldn't have dared to reraise you.
    • aaccw
      aaccw
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 55
      Originally posted by helemaalnicks
      ...because you know he is not going to fold, otherwise he wouldn't have dared to reraise you.
      I agree. Own tactical approach back to as it was. Not 4 betting any hands preflop.

      :spade: wannabe jr
    • helemaalnicks
      helemaalnicks
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.09.2007 Posts: 7,195
      no, you should of course have reraised with AA or KK, because, as i said, he is not going to fold, otherwise he wouldn't have dared reraising.
    • Berliner1982
      Berliner1982
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.07.2006 Posts: 5,644
      This hand should be discussed in the BSS Sample hand section.
    • aaccw
      aaccw
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 55
      Originally posted by helemaalnicks
      no, you should of course have reraised with AA or KK, because, as i said, he is not going to fold, otherwise he wouldn't have dared reraising.
      Hmm... I prefer not to even with AA/KK. You see, unless the hand will be taken All-In pre-flop I would be imho giving out too much information about my holdings. I mean if AA, KK would be the only hands I am gonna play by open betting and further re-raising. So... I think I rather take the value I gain from deception and keeping the opponent a tad more confused.

      I am adapting to thinking a single pair is not a hand to got to war with (now... I don't play short stack even I had to post this hand here; for some reason I can not post at the BSS forum; I guess it's my basic memebr status). So I rather bet and raise once pre-flop and then have the flop like with many-many other hands as well.

      So... In my world this was a trial paly which I consider unnecessary aggressive especially cash management wise (deep stack pot control becomes utterly difficult at the post-flop play) and I shall stop using it.

      :spade: wannabe jr
    • jokerhb
      jokerhb
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2007 Posts: 264
      Originally posted by aaccw
      Seat 5: HERO ( $23.06 USD )

      So... I guess my cbet was still correct (or I guess 1/2 pot should have been enough as the pot was already so big), but how about going All-In?
      AFAI understand SSS you should have gone All-In pre flop.

      As mentioned in the strategy section (http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/no-limit/216/6/#h1_6) you had a stack/raise ratio of more than 4:1 and the strategy guide states you should push All-In with AA-JJ, AK.

      CU
      jokerhb

      P.S.: Why didn't you leave the table as your stack was >>> 25 BB?
    • aaccw
      aaccw
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 55
      [quote]Originally posted by jokerhb
      Originally posted by aaccw
      AFAI understand SSS you should have gone All-In pre flop.
      P.S.: Why didn't you leave the table as your stack was >>> 25 BB?
      Yes I should have by SSS. This is the only forum where I can post regarding hands (I guess by my basic member status - which seems I won't be able to improve) and I play deep stack - that's why I didn't leave :)

      :spade: wannabe jr
    • aaccw
      aaccw
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 55
      another dual posting... sorry. please remove.
    • harptom
      harptom
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2007 Posts: 5
      You made 2 mistakes. One preflop and one on the flop.
      Preflop you shouldn't have rereraised what you did. You should have either called or raised more. He is not going to fold any hand you want him to for such a small raise. So your 2 options are overraise as if you had KK, AA, AK or you just flat call and hope to hit the flop.
      On the flop you shouldn't have bet out. You missed your flop and it came a really dangerous flop. Also it is more likely your opponent folds to a check/raise then to a bet. If you think he is weak you would check and see how much he would bet. If he does not pot-commit himself you can check/raise him all-in and hope he folds. And he if flopped a pair or had QQ JJ you still have outs with 2 streets left. But betting out with nothing and when he has position is the worst play here.