The Rake

    • silent21
      silent21
      Global
      Joined: 08.08.2008 Posts: 1,556
      By Benjamin1

      I'm just a casual poker grinder. I used the game to get through University with zero debt and I've never really put a serious consistent effort into being particularly good at it. However time and time again I find myself wondering why online poker players are so unconcerned with the rake that they pay. Since mid 2007 I've only played about 155k hands. That's roughly 310 hours of poker at 500 hands per hour. Almost entirely at .25/.50 PLO. I've made a pithy $1377.00 which isn't really anything. I play almost exclusively on Pokerstars. Most of the time I've been a Gold Star. I've never been higher than Platinum Star. I've paid $13,687.00 in rake.

      That is $44.15 in rake per hour/500 hands. That is roughly 9pt/bb in rake. If Pokerstars allowed me a choice of 100% rakeback but $50.00 per month up front for access to the service I would be playing 1/2 PLO with a sizable roll. What this means is that the games would be considerably softer. I'm not even very good and I play about two hours of poker a week. Instead what's really going on is that Pokerstars, FTP, and others are scooping most of the money. The games are thinning out mostly because people are being raked to death. They come up with flashy things like Supernova Elite to convince you they reward their players. It's all just a clever rouse to get people to grind more. People become obsessed with earning their next bonus rather than playing well or learning the game.

      I don't play World of Warcraft. I do however know that millions of people do. These people do so for $20.00 per month or less. Imagine if 310 hours of access to something like WoW cost you $13,687.00. That's $44.00 per hour for your video game. Does that sound like something that makes any sense to you? Fast secure service for a reliable video game doesn't cost that much. Poker is an exceptionally simple game.

      So there are maybe three realities of what might happen going forward:

      1. People will continue to say and do nothing. Regulars at 1/2, 2/4, 5/10+ will make far less money than if the fish were being raked for less and managing to grind their way up to the higher stakes.

      2. Someone will create a poker site similar to 100's of start-ups out there with one key difference. Rake will have two options. Option one will be the system and rates that currently exist everywhere. Option two will be a $50.00 payment up front for 30 days of access to the software. The person who creates this software will become a multi-millionaire and probably be credited with starting the 2nd "Poker Boom" after Moneymaker. Pokerstars, FTP, and others will quickly add the change to their software as well. The other site will probably die as regulars migrate back to the main sites but not without having collected a couple million dollars worth of up front fees for its original backers. The dust will settle and the major sites will now have an option to pay $50.00 up front for 30 days access and receive 100% Rakeback.

      3. Players all over the world will publicly campaign for this option forcing one of the major sites to seize the opportunity to corner the market by making this change.

      Do you players at 1/2+ want your win-rate to increase by 3pt/bb instantly?
      Do you players at 1/2+ want more fish to work their way into your games instead of being raked to death at micros?

      If you answered yes to both of those questions then start talking about this issue. The long term health of the games especially at higher levels depends on weak players being able to advance through the levels in order to donate money higher up. I'd be a fish donating at 1/2 instead of making Pokerstars 13k richer. Do you want Pokerstars to take all my winnings with 9pt/bb rake or do you want a piece of that pie?

      If we can come together on this issue we will change the landscape of the online poker world as we know it. This is a change that benefits everyone. I urge people on this site and others to come up with a plan to strike on the major sites similar to the Pokerstars.fr sitting out strike until this change is implemented. There is no definable reason why players should pay over $50.00 USD per month for access to an internet video game. These websites are charging insane prices because nobody is protecting the consumer and the consumers are too lazy to stand up for themselves. Lets start standing up for ourselves!






      so true... and so sad...
  • 123 replies
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      There are (or at least was) rooms that would give up to 100% rakeback an no one plays there so don't think that someone who'd make a 50$ monthly fee room would suddenly make millions, also he'd have to invest millions firstly. And until then no major room will randomly decide to make such rake options available. So nice dream, but not gonna happen.

      Btw I think 50$ fee is very small, remember that room needs to put some money in advertising, bonuses and other cool stuff to attract fishes. I think that the fee should be made based on the stakes the customer wants to play, like for micros maybe 50$ is enough, for SSNL maybe something like 500$ or so, MSNL 1k etc etc.
    • Atoks
      Atoks
      Gold
      Joined: 01.06.2008 Posts: 1,354
      Yeah it sounds good when u first read through it but... would fish seriously pay a subscription to poker? Does anyone honestly believe that the fish are even aware of how much they rake in for the online poker rooms? It is true that the fees we pay are enormous. But then, if there was another way, a way to make things simpler/cheaper/w.e, don't u think it'd already have happened?

      It may be the defeated grinder in me posing that last question but honestly ... how many people here actually believe that things could actually change any time soon? Or ever for that matter?
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Originally posted by Atoks
      would fish seriously pay a subscription to poker?
      Does anyone honestly believe that the fish are even aware of how much they rake in for the online poker rooms?
      There would be an option to choose between paying regular rake and monthly fee, so the fish wouldn't get hurt.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Yeah we rake shitload of money. Last month i played almost 70k hands on nl25 and for 86 hours of play i raked 1500.24$. My total winnings were only 900$. So with out rake i would have almost 2.5k in winnings which is twice as much as now. And the only bonus on pokerstars that you can afford for raking that much is 300$ one. And yeah supernova is kinda possible if you grind there the whole year, but rb on supernova isn't even that good compared to elite which is next to impossible for regular players that dont 24table high stakes.
    • Atoks
      Atoks
      Gold
      Joined: 01.06.2008 Posts: 1,354
      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
      Originally posted by Atoks
      would fish seriously pay a subscription to poker?
      Does anyone honestly believe that the fish are even aware of how much they rake in for the online poker rooms?
      There would be an option to choose between paying regular rake and monthly fee, so the fish wouldn't get hurt.
      Well that's a pretty obvious idea. The real problem however is the fact that the biggest grinders produce most of the rake/profit for the poker rooms. I just don't see a snowflake's chance in hell that the poker rooms will give that little boon up easily.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Originally posted by Atoks
      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
      Originally posted by Atoks
      would fish seriously pay a subscription to poker?
      Does anyone honestly believe that the fish are even aware of how much they rake in for the online poker rooms?
      There would be an option to choose between paying regular rake and monthly fee, so the fish wouldn't get hurt.
      Well that's a pretty obvious idea. The real problem however is the fact that the biggest grinders produce most of the rake/profit for the poker rooms. I just don't see a snowflake's chance in hell that the poker rooms will give that little boon up easily.
      Yea, ofc, I don't see it ever happening as well, but it feels good sometimes to dream of better tomorrow. ;)
    • TerrorBlade
      TerrorBlade
      Black
      Joined: 16.10.2007 Posts: 1,922
      This would kill the games in the sense that 4billion more regs would come to play as you could make tons of money at the lowstakes and maybe even result in regs like you or I making even less.
    • silent21
      silent21
      Global
      Joined: 08.08.2008 Posts: 1,556
      Originally posted by TerrorBlade
      This would kill the games in the sense that 4billion more regs would come to play as you could make tons of money at the lowstakes and maybe even result in regs like you or I making even less.
      According to official info released from PokerStars themselves, during 2009 they raked 4 million $ per day on average. All of the money come from deposits and everyday PS takes a big share. The possibility to leave into the liquidity pool so much money outweights maaaaany times the breakeven regs that will appear.
    • Hades1313
      Hades1313
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.11.2009 Posts: 139
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Yeah we rake shitload of money. Last month i played almost 70k hands on nl25 and for 86 hours of play i raked 1500.24$. My total winnings were only 900$. So with out rake i would have almost 2.5k in winnings which is twice as much as now. And the only bonus on pokerstars that you can afford for raking that much is 300$ one. And yeah supernova is kinda possible if you grind there the whole year, but rb on supernova isn't even that good compared to elite which is next to impossible for regular players that dont 24table high stakes.


      If i'm not mistaken there where people that got to Supernova Elit playing nl50. I think he was 16tabl. 6-8h/day.
    • justkyle88
      justkyle88
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 7,596
      The thing is, SNE isn't supposed to be easy.
      It's like easy, medium, hard, advanced, expert
    • i5bet72o
      i5bet72o
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,615
      Poker is not really a video game b/c u can make alot of money playing it. No matter how good u r at other games, u make no money but if u r good at poker u can make alot of money, so i dont think u can compare poker to video games.
    • fuzzyfish
      fuzzyfish
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.01.2010 Posts: 862
      The amount of rake taken by poker rooms is insane. I play NL10, thats pretty micro, right? I mean its meant for donks like me to fool around and start to get the hold of the game, right. And I pay like $400 a month for that opportunity.

      THIS IS THE SAME AS MY MONTHLY MORTGAGE PAYMENT, JESUS CHRIST!

      I mean, this is a lot of money. This sum would be acceptable in middle stakes or so... Actually it would be kinda logical that an average good winning player (this is not me, but still) would pay about 10% of his monthly earnings to the poker room, wouldnt it?

      I recently searched information about the low-rake rooms - and it seems that they started with a big bang - WSEX started with like a 80% rakeback, but for now it has subsided to about 50% and nobody plays there anyway, so whats the point.

      Very sad actually. I'm usually not fond of conspiracy theories and stuff like that but it would be really cool if somebody actually looked into the whole thing of competiton between poker rooms and their profit margins.
    • justkyle88
      justkyle88
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 7,596
      So I guess this guy don't count
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal1ty
      Biography Wendel has won approximately US$500,000 in cash and prizes from professional competitions, mainly in the Cyberathlete Professional League (CPL). In addition to receiving numerous product partnerships with his company Fatal1ty Brand (Fatal1ty, Inc.), he has been featured in mainstream newsprint publications such as Time, The New York Times, Forbes, and the BBC World Service. He has also been featured on 60 Minutes. He has a training regimen [2] where he practices at least eight hours each day, sometimes more.
    • AlCaTrAzzALZ
      AlCaTrAzzALZ
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.05.2008 Posts: 726
      i dont think SNE is realistically possible for anyone below NL100, even then u need to 24 tables for 8 hours a day and not miss a day to get on pace for SNE
    • conall88
      conall88
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      post of the week tbh.

      would love something like this to be available!
    • Ribbo
      Ribbo
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2010 Posts: 6,157
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      So with out rake i would have almost 2.5k in winnings which is twice as much as now. .
      Without rake you would have won nothing as the poker room wouldn't exist. :f_biggrin:
    • fuzzyfish
      fuzzyfish
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.01.2010 Posts: 862
      Originally posted by Ribbo
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      So with out rake i would have almost 2.5k in winnings which is twice as much as now. .
      Without rake you would have won nothing as the poker room wouldn't exist. :f_biggrin:
      Yeah. Another thing that makes me sad is that Wikipedia and Linux doesn't exist. It would be fun if we had those at our service but they simply don't exist because we dont pay $400 for using them :f_cry:

      Oh, wait...
    • Ribbo
      Ribbo
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2010 Posts: 6,157
      Originally posted by Atoks
      The real problem however is the fact that the biggest grinders produce most of the rake/profit for the poker rooms.
      Just not true, in the slightest.
      If poker sites could ban winning players from their software, they would. :f_biggrin:
      Casual players collectively rake thousands of times more dollars than the grinders. What poker sites want in a perfect world is everyone with the same skill level so lots of rake gets paid and nobody ever withdraws. :f_grin:
    • fuzzyfish
      fuzzyfish
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.01.2010 Posts: 862
      Actually I'm not implying that poker rooms should be free, but current service fees are just ridiculous.