C-bet-> fold vs 1 opponent.

    • golgo14
      golgo14
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.10.2010 Posts: 6
      Hi guys,

      I'm new here.

      I've always enjoyed the short stack approach. I've used it quite successfully live, now, for about 400 hours at $1/$2. I've averaged $25/hr in that time.

      Thoughts:

      I have a slight disagreement with the general recommendation that one should C-bet, then fold against one opponent.

      1 opponent limps. Your raise 5bb with AKo. Villain calls. The flop is rags. You miss. Pot is now 11.5bb. You C-bet 7bb. Opponent calls. You check the turn, he bets, you fold.

      Total loss: 12bb

      Consider the alternative:

      Same scenario, but now you push on the flop. Total pot size is now 11.5 + 30 bb (15 of yours and 15 of your opponents). 41.5 bb. With AKo, you are about 24% to hit TPTK. And let's assume that will give you the win. Thus ...

      41.4 bb x .24 = 9.96 bb (let's call it 10).

      In the previous example, we lost 12bb. But if we automatically pushed on the flop, we would have only lost 10bb (long term). And this does not include fold equity we might be able to capitalize on.

      I'd argue that given the sizable raises preflop, the basic strategy should simply be to push on the flop against a single opponent. And I'd go further to suggest that simply pushing on the flop even when connected would further help for metagame purposes.

      I would be most interested in your feedback on this.

      Best,
      G14
  • 5 replies
    • Evante
      Evante
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.12.2009 Posts: 833
      welcome to Pokerstrategy.

      u tried that at the casino?

      with 20 bb stack or you just played really tight?

      Have you started playing online?

      i believe the dynamic of the game would be different.

      Sorry for so many questions
    • N0pr3s3n7
      N0pr3s3n7
      Platinum
      Joined: 14.05.2009 Posts: 1,286
      The main idea of poker isn't losing less because thus you will be loser long term , but to win any.There are many ways of playing such a hand profitable ,and your line of cbeting flop and folding to any turn barrel is too weak.
    • golgo14
      golgo14
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.10.2010 Posts: 6
      Hi Evante:

      Yes, I used the basic SS approach in the Casino. The only difference is the games are much looser live than they are online. In a live game, preflop raises of 10bb are not uncommon. Thus, even though I am forced to buy in for 50bb, I simply double all the preflop raising recommendations to give me the same relative stack-to-pot ratios post flop.

      Essentially, I am playing a very aggressive short stack strategy but buying in mid.

      (ps I just started playing online. The game is a complete nitfest. Short stacking works exceptionally well at loose, aggressive games. Online, I suspect it would still work, but I found it more profitable simply to play position, raise every limped pot, and bully a little.)

      Hi NO:

      I agree that cbetting then folding to any turn barrel is too weak. Yet, this is exactly what the basic SS strategy recommends. I think this is incorrect. My argument is that as a default play, pushing is more profitable. However, I trust that the mods here have their reasons for this fold, so I am quite willing to admit I'm wrong on this matter.

      I'm just not quite sure where.

      Best,
      G14
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Many of the basic strategies are designed to exploit particular types of opponents, such as those who aren't going to call on the flop with nothing to try to take the pot away if the board gets scary or you slow down. If you run into other types of opponents, or as you get better at reading more complicated situations, then you should play differently.

      One problem with your calculation is that you say AK will hit TPTK 24% if you push (fine), but you assume that if you bet a smaller amount, that you will miss on the turn. However, about half of that 24% comes from hitting on the turn, and about half comes from hitting on the river. If you hit on the turn, then you can try to get the money in. If you miss on the turn and check-fold against a passive player who would not bluff, then you are not giving up that much if you get bet off of 6 questionable outs.
    • golgo14
      golgo14
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.10.2010 Posts: 6
      Thanks pzhon, that makes sense.

      And if I look at some of the other articles, it does mention that your 6 outs with overcards are really more like 4. I can see the c-bet->fold to be a solid compromise given you are getting to see half your potential outs.

      It is, after all, a basic strategy to build on.

      I'll keep playing with it live and let you all know the results. I've dabbled in deep stack play, but inevitably my glorious victories are met with equally glorious defeats. However, I seem to steadily grind a profit with shortstacking.

      (Mind you, this is not too difficult to do when the average preflop raise is 8-10bb, and 3-5 see the flop. Yes, poker is that good in my city.)

      Best,
      G14