a few questions for mass sng multi-tablers

    • maikii23
      maikii23
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.10.2008 Posts: 141
      Hi,

      After a little break of poker i'm back to take a shoot on mass multi-tabeling 9-man turbo sngs on FTP. Why I want to try this out? Well I found me not so good on flop play, so I preffer TAG style playing where mostly I play only premium hands at early stages...I'm trying to avoid any marginal hands...Also I found me often browsing some web sites while playing up to 9 tables, so I loose some valuable reads on my ops anyway. :(

      I'm planning to multi-table 12 to 15 tables in successive SnGs, instead of sets, which I used to play, cos I think there are more less chance to get on tilt and i'm forced to take all my attention to tables (no more net browsing :D ) But before I start I would like to ask a few questions to all mass multi-tablers:

      1) Which HUD stats do You find usable when mass-tabling?
      2) Do You take any notes on ops? If yes then what kind of notes, considering we don't got much time to see how flops are played.
      3) How big bankroll You suggest to use to feel comfortable?
      4) Up to what limit ROI of 5%+ is attainable with decent play?
      5) What could be average sample size I need to get to start make any conclusions - I'm good, bad on mass multi-tabeling?
      6) Any other useful info You can share, which could help to play profitable?

      Thanks a lot for any info You can share and GL at tables! :)
  • 14 replies
    • lessthanthreee
      lessthanthreee
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.06.2009 Posts: 16,300
      1) Which HUD stats do You find usable when mass-tabling?

      vpip,pfr,3bet,steal,af,limp,1st in from sb,#ofhands,fold bb to steal

      2) Do You take any notes on ops? If yes then what kind of notes, considering we don't got much time to see how flops are played.

      yes, shove/call ranges and limping ranges. find your own quick and easy method of taking notes. you should be able to note in <5secs

      3) How big bankroll You suggest to use to feel comfortable?

      personal preference, i use 100-200BIs

      4) Up to what limit ROI of 5%+ is attainable with decent play?

      depends on the limit and your definition of 'decent'.

      5) What could be average sample size I need to get to start make any conclusions - I'm good, bad on mass multi-tabeling?

      you can tell if ur a winning player in 1-2k games on that limit. you can estimate your real roi after approx 10k games on that limit.

      6) Any other useful info You can share, which could help to play profitable?

      use ninja.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
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      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Originally posted by maikii23
      After a little break of poker i'm back to take a shoot on mass multi-tabeling 9-man turbo sngs on FTP. Why I want to try this out? Well I found me not so good on flop play, so I preffer TAG style playing where mostly I play only premium hands at early stages...I'm trying to avoid any marginal hands...Also I found me often browsing some web sites while playing up to 9 tables, so I loose some valuable reads on my ops anyway.
      It concerns me that you say you want to play 12-15 tables continously, but you haven't said that you have established a winning track record or feel that you have a clear skill advantage while playing fewer tables. Playing more tables at a time generally decreases your ROI, and if you would only break even on fewer tables, this means you would become a losing player by playing more tables at once. If you lose track of a single table as you play, this is a large hit to your ROI, and you will make other errors like accidentally folding AA preflop, or calling all-in with J4o. You will have less time to make each decision.

      A lot of the more successful multitablers do not avoid marginally profitable situations. They need those small edges to get the higher ROIs. If you are passing up edges, playing only premium hands early, you might reduce your ROI significantly.

      I think you should build up to playing that many tables, and only do it if you think the extra tournaments are worth the lower ROI and increased stress. Also, you might not learn as quickly if you are pushing the envelope of how many tables you can play.

      I'll answer some of your questions:


      2) Do You take any notes on ops? If yes then what kind of notes, considering we don't got much time to see how flops are played.
      I take notes while multitabling. I look up hands which have been played earlier using the client. I try not to take notes on things which are indicated by the HUD, but I note whether I see the player multitabling, whether I see some missed Nash ATC shoves, and what the player shows down in some situations which are highly read-dependent.

      3) How big bankroll You suggest to use to feel comfortable?
      The bankroll you need depends on your win rate. A general formula is

      bankroll = comfort * standard deviation^2 / win rate.

      Comfort depends on your risk tolerance and willingness to move down when you have a bad streak. A comfort level of 2 is considered aggressive. A comfort of 4 is conservative.

      The standard deviation of a 9-player 50-30-20 tournament is usually between 1.45 and 1.55 buy-ins per tournament.

      Your win rate depends on you. The bankroll calculations are tentative when you don't know your win rate, but they can indicate that your bankroll is too small if your bankroll would not be enough even with the ROI you would like to achieve. You should express your win rate in the same units as the standard deviation, so a 5% ROI is a win rate of 0.05. You can increase your win rate by rakeback and regular bonuses, but decrease it by regular withdrawals.

      If you choose to use a comfort level of 3, your standard deviation is 1.5 buy-ins per tournament, and your ROI is 5%, then you want to have a bankroll of 3 * (1.5^2) / 0.05 = 135 buy-ins. If your ROI is greater, you don't need as much to be as safe. If your ROI is lower, then you might need more than 135 buy-ins.

      5) What could be average sample size I need to get to start make any conclusions - I'm good, bad on mass multi-tabeling?
      After n tournaments, a rough 95% confidence interval for your true win rate is your observed ROI +- 310%/squareroot(n). This assumes your standard deviation per tournament is 1.55 buy-ins. So, after 1000 tournaments, the width of that confidence interval is +- 10%. After 4000 tournaments, +-5%. It's not a huge shock to be up to 10% off over 1000 tournaments, or up to 5% off after 4000 tournaments.

      6) Any other useful info You can share, which could help to play profitable?
      Make sure your computer has enough memory. Poker does not require a great computer, but multitabling requires much more memory than the clients say they require. Have 2 gigs or more memory or you will have a lot more freezing and crashing.

      If you don't already have one, get a second monitor. Most graphics cards and Windows from XP onwards are ready for you to use two monitors. Even if you stack tables on one monitor, you will find uses for the second, and you should be able to play with 16 tables tiled on two monitors.
    • LgWz
      LgWz
      Black
      Joined: 26.05.2007 Posts: 7,641
      phzon can you elaborate on comfort levels? What do they statistically mean? I imagine it's something like "with x comfort level you won't go broke more than y% of the time". Just simple curiosity tbh =p
    • AquamanBT
      AquamanBT
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 338
      Bankroll size also depends if you are going to be cashing out as a regular income. You would need a bigger cushion if you don't have the winnings you expect that month and still need to get the money out.

      But hey, with what previous posters stated you already got the most solid advice you could get around. I can only share with you what my little experience has been.

      I tried to play successive but got too tired quickly. With sets I can take a 10 min break in between which is important for me... I'm not 18 anymore.

      I have now a 27" screen in which I can tile 12 tables, but I have to move the mouse too much. Hot keys are of great help, but I now prefer to play with quasi-tiled tables. I mean that they are organized in a grid, but each table is almost double the size as if they were tiled.. This helps me to see the hud better displaying 9 stats. I got used to the overlapping very quickly. I have played up to 16 tables that way and it feels pretty comfortable. I've never had dual monitors, so can't compare.

      In any case I wish you the best.
    • gedwashere91
      gedwashere91
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      Joined: 20.07.2009 Posts: 2,387
      Originally posted by maikii23
      .... mass multi-tabeling 9-man turbo sngs on FTP. Why I want to try this out? Well I found me not so good on flop play, so I preffer TAG style playing where mostly I play only premium hands at early stages...I'm trying to avoid any marginal hands...
      You can avoid marginal hands but not marginal spots post-flop. If you are 12 - 15 tabling and you already admit your postflop play is sub-par, you are just burning your money and learning nothing in the process. Do you want to be a better poker player, or spend your whole time grinding a 5% ROI at the $2.25s or $6.50s?

      My postflop was shit when I started 9-mans; it's still is FAR from perfect, but has improved in VAST amounts (and so has my ROI with it). The best way to increase your ROI is not to just stick your head in the sand and try to avoid marginal post-flop spots, but to actively seek out post flop situations so you LEARN more. I did this by playing Normal SnGs, which have a much slower blind structure, so you get lots more cool postflop situations which you can then post in the hand eval forums and learn sick soulreading skillzzzz.
    • nathanrenard
      nathanrenard
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.02.2009 Posts: 816
      Have to go with Ged here. Although i started out playing SNGs, and now i'm a CG player. The fate is the same.

      You will have to play lots of hands post-flop, and that's where poker is actually all about. When i first started in CG i was in Full Ring, where's there so much less post-flop action, and now that i'm SH, i can fully understand Ged there.

      You have to be able to play post-flop to be a winning player. Trying to avoid marginal spots can be good for grinding for a while, but in no means will make you a better poker player.

      You don't wanna be mass-multitabling and then seeing urself facing 3, 4 hard decisions post-flop with little time to think about it. 3 basic rules for poker. Patience, patience and patience.

      Gl
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
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      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      Originally posted by pzhon
      The standard deviation of a 9-player 50-30-20 tournament is usually between 1.45 and 1.55 buy-ins per tournament.
      is there a way to check this with holdem manager? or even better, if it's too diferent for super turbo stt?
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      I don't think HEM reports the standard deviation per tournament, but you can calculate it from the finish distribution.

      • A = Avg(prize)
      • B = Avg(prize^2)
      • Mathematical variance = B-(A^2)
      • Standard Deviation = Sqrt(Variance)
      • Express everything in $ first, then divide by the buy-in.

      For example, if your finish distribution is 14% first, 13% second, and 12% third, and you play $22+2s, the prizes are $99, $59.40, and $39.60.

      A = 0.14 x 99 + 0.13 x 59.40 + 0.12 x 39.60 = 26.334

      B = 0.14 x (99^2) + 0.13 x (59.40^2) + 0.12 x (39.60^2) = 2019.01

      Variance = 2019.01 - 26.334^2 = 1325.53

      Standard deviation = Sqrt(1325.53) = $36.41

      $36.41 / $24 = 152% of a buy-in.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
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      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Originally posted by LgWz
      phzon can you elaborate on comfort levels? What do they statistically mean? I imagine it's something like "with x comfort level you won't go broke more than y% of the time". Just simple curiosity tbh =p
      Comfort is a term I made up. It's the reciprocal of the Kelly fraction in fractional Kelly systems discussed by stock market investors and card counters in blackjack.

      Comfort is related to the instantaneous risk of ruin. If the games don't change, and you don't tilt, and you stay at the same level without cashing out, then your risk of ruin is e^(-2 x comfort), or about 1/7^comfort. So, a comfort level of 2 corresponds to an instantaneous risk of ruin of about 2%, while a comfort level of 4 corresponds to an instantaneous risk of ruin of about 0.04%.

      Another useful interpretation of the comfort level is in terms of the probability your bankroll will be cut to C times its current level, assuming you can scale your bets to preserve that comfort level. Your chance to fall to Z times your current bankroll at some point is Z^(2 x comfort - 1). So, what is the chance your bankroll will be cut in half Z=1/2? With a comfort level of 1, 1/2. With a comfort level of 2, 1/8~13%. With a comfort level of 3, 1/32~3%. With a comfort level of 4, 1/128~1%.

      Your comfort level depends on you, and you may want to use the same comfort level across different advantage gambling situations. If you play both cash games and tournaments, you may want to use the same comfort level for each.

      If your comfort level drops below the target level, you don't have to quit. However, if your comfort level drops to less than half of the target level, you should view playing as an expense. It is ok to have expenses, but they should be outweighed by the play which is good for your bankroll.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
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      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Your standard deviation in STTs does not depend much on your playing style or the speed of the tournament. (In other forms of poker, your standard deviation depends on your style.) Your target comfort level can be set to some value like 3. So, the main factor which affects the bankroll you need in STTs is your win rate (ROI). You can predict that your ROI will fall as you move up in stakes, so no fixed number of buy-ins will work as you move up.

      For a standard deviation of 1.5 buy-ins, and a target comfort level of 3, here are bankroll levels as a function of win rate:

      ROI, Bankroll
      15%, 45 buy-ins
      10, 68
      8, 84
      6, 113
      5, 135
      4, 169
      3, 225
      2, 338
      1%, 675 buy-ins

      These assume that you know your win rate (the games don't change) and that you don't go on tilt.
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
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      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      really nice read
    • maikii23
      maikii23
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      Joined: 18.10.2008 Posts: 141
      Originally posted by alejandrosh
      really nice read
      +1

      This discussion convince me to stay to 9 tables and improve my game. So for now only change I will take - will try play successive SnGs instead of sets to keep my attention all time to tables.
    • Salivanth
      Salivanth
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.01.2011 Posts: 587
      Wow, some really detailed maths there: Thanks pzhon. This should be useful for my own BRM. (Well, would be, if I had anywhere near a decent sample size...10k to determine my ROI? So crazy. I'll probably have moved up limits by then.)
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      You will have a rough idea of what your ROI is long before 10,000 tournaments. If you have strong evidence that your ROI is 7% +- 5%, you can act on that information even if that's a wide range. Also, you should be watching how your opponents play, not just using the results, and if you are objective enough you can estimate your ROI from your opponents' mistakes with a much smaller sample. If I decided to play microstakes SNGs, I would not need to play thousands to be confident I can beat those for a good rate, too.