When can you raise for value on the flop with a draw

  • Fixed-Limit
  • FL
(4 Votes) 8948


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Our latest FL strategy video focuses on flop play. Lisa will explain you the mathematics behind raising for value with a draw.


flop Theory Video

Comments (7)

newest first
  • FishermansFriend


    Enjoy our new FL strategy video!

    Please keep the comments in English!
  • simoneit


    nice vid ! thx
  • styx74


    THX :)
  • fu4711


    (For mistakes please blame the german school system)

    First of all, understanding the concept of the value raising is essential to poker, but the topic is much more complex. So please take my comments more as an addition than as a general critique.

    I don´t think, investigating streets isolated makes a lot of sense. Capping the flop OOP and than check calling the turn gives away way too much information (and thus value) because you normally can´t balance this line.
    And the loss of bet/calling the turn and paying an extra big bet often overcompensates the gain on the flop.

    Furthermore you have to discount your outs properly. A 9 high flush draw may easily be dominated or at least gives someone a redraw to a higher flush or a full house multiway. On the other hand, pair outs can be worth something too. Holding overcards to the board next to a draw is normally better than undercards. Although they have worse reversed implied odds in general.

    And you often kill your implied odds by taking the initiative. Many hands will only call you down if make your hand whilst you might haven gotten an extra bet by raising the turn or river if you hit.

    Position is a key factor for value raising in those spots. Considerations about free cards on the turn and folding out opponents on the flop (which often turns a small $EV gain from the raise into a loss) highly influence the value of the line to the river, often way more than the smallish profits you can extract on the flop.

    In FLHE, equity edges with draws are normally pretty slim especially in short handed games. Habitually pushing them without fold equity or at least implied fold equity is overall -EV. In games like PLO or Stud, where Draws can even in short handed pots be a severe favourite over other showdown hands (because we ruled out fold equity by definition), this is totally different.

    Analysing a value line makes only sense is a more complex context even for silver members nowadays.

    Maybe PS.de starts producing power point videos which put together all the basic concepts like the one in this video to an applicable strategy! I think there is a big gap in content between the very basics and the more advanced contributions especially from a theoretical approach.
  • LindalaOre


    Well, I guess the point of this video is to show that value-raise with a draw is just profitable in described circumstances. There was not mentioned that it is profitable in comparison with other certain lines, only that the profit of a value-raise decision is > 0

    As for rest you've mentioned I agree: there are moves that gain more profit, especially if your value-raise with a draw does not confuse your observant opponents and they can easily put you on a draw.
  • fu4711


    Well, maybe, but the described "circumstances" are not applicable to real game scenarios. Hands do not end after the flop.
    And calculating with undiscounted outs plus not taking into account the possibilities of others folding or someone 3betting causing others to fold even on the flop does not lead to applicable results.
    But all I wanted to achieve is to encourage people to think further, because FLHE got a lot tougher in the last few years and you will not beat midstakes games with a chart and four standard lines postflop like we did a while ago.
  • Knallo


    This is one of the most difficult situations I know. The video is encouraging (I think I follow the suggestions almost all of the time), but fu4711 is quite right.