Logic Knot - Part 1 - Donk Bets

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New coach Boomer2k10 makes his first theory video. In it he shares his thoughts on donk betting in Limit holdem and how you should react when it happens to you.


Logic Knot series Theory Video

Comments (26)

newest first
  • FishermansFriend


    Enjoy the first theory video by Boomer2k10!

    Please keep the comments in English!
  • Yanoux


    thx. i m looking forward to watch the next episode.
  • cetchmoh


    very good and very interesting video! more theory vids from you please :)
  • bogie


    nice vid Boomer !
  • Boomer2k10


    Thanks Guys, if you have any requests for these types of videos please let me know
  • taschendamenfalter


    nice one boomer

    as you mentioned a donk bet confuses most players and they react badly.
    so shouldn't donk-bets be part of our repertoire? we might lose value in the actual hand but regain it by future mistakes of our opponents?

    will there be a vid on when and against who to place a donk bet?

    i have to admit, i occasionally use donk-bets against "emotional" players (flaming around when sucked-out e.g.) to drive them mad (seems to work especially good in combination with check-raising the turn).
  • Boomer2k10



    Actually I do believe there is a way to work donk bets into a balanced post-flop strategy, I just haven't come up with it yet.

    Especially if strategies like checking behind the flop start becoming commonplace then the natural countermeasure would be to start donk-betting the flop with a range of made hands/draws and air.

    As you mentioned they also work on poor thinking TAGFish who are completely unaware of how to handle them so in short the answer to your question is yes, I think they can be used.

    The places where I'm comfortable donk betting are a bit rare so I'm not sure I have enough material for a video at the moment, however should something like that come up I'll probably make a video out of it becasue it's an interesting topic

    Thanks for your comments
  • taschendamenfalter


    thx for the answer
  • Styrodon


    Nice vid Boomer, sound stuff.

    Looking forward to the next one.

    I wonder if playing for draws has enough subject matter for a vid. We've probably all had to split whether winning or loosing when the board makes a hand. It's something I know I'm not always looking for or calculating the odds for.
  • Kongotto


    Hi Boomer and Viewers,

    Boomer descripes the costs and potdds of a planned calldown. (cant find the minute now) Situation: Pot 13$ Villian donks 3$ and Boomer says sth like: "a calldown has 3:1 potodds here". How do u calculate this?
    13+(3+6+6)/(3+6+6)=28/15= 1,87 :1
    So ~35% EQ needed.
    other calc: 13+(3+6+6)[his bets]+(3+6+6)[my calldown clicks]/13+(3+6+6)[my calldown clicks] = 2,87:1 but this cant be right because: when un take the full pot the odds are x-1.
  • Boomer2k10


    Hi Kongotto

    You're correct and I apologise, little slip on my behalf, the correct term there would have been 1 in 3 not 3-1

    FWIW for anyone I've confused the odds are as follows to call down assuming opponent donks all 3 streets:

    Flop - 2-1 (2.5 in 7 or ~35%)
    Turn - 2.5-1 (2 in 7 or ~ 28%)
    River - 6-1 (1 in 7 ~ 14%)

    Apologies again if I confused anyone with my terminology there.

    Fortunately in all hands I think our equity was above 40% so it didn't make any difference to the percieved correct play.

    Well Spotted though
  • Kongotto


    "Well Spotted though"

    Well, this happens, when a NL player watches ur vid with strategic things and concepts in mind.
    The Calldown ist as much interesting as the c/c c/c donk line.

    So, I tried to get sth for my play, but I think calldowns are too different at NL (because the odds are way worse). But the Ranges u describe help all players.

    thx 4 content and quick answer
  • RedHeater


    An interesting video, thanks. I would like to see some situations where we have a little less showdown value - say KQ overcards rather than ace high. Its possible I am too quick to put opponents on weak made hands when they donk, and should put more draws in their ranges. Definitely donking habits is something worth adding to our notes on a player.
  • Tiltbutton


    31:18 How do we have Ah9h and opponent has AhXh in his range?
  • Tiltbutton


    35:46 If you play to reraise/call a 3bet and then reraise the Turn, wouldn't it be better to call Flop and raise Turn? Also isn't it a little overplayed to 3b vs a turn c/r? What would you do vs a cap from him.
  • Ribbo


    #14 I think this was more about looking at the complete range of the opponent, for educational purposes when something similar happens to you in future.
    Obviously you then cross out all the blockers you have from that range.
  • Boomer2k10


    @ Tiltbutton (14)

    As Ribbo said this is just a show of what his range for donking may be. Equilator will remove any impossible combos so there's no disadvantage in keeping the whole range around should we ahve a hand like KJ etc in the future.
  • Boomer2k10


    @ Tiltbutton (15)

    On this board no I don't like call flop raise turn as much as raise flop/raise turn because it's a board where we have almost no peeling range and thus when we're raising the turn we're pretty much always value raising as there are almost no 2's in our 3-betting range so we can't really even rep that by calling.

    Additionally as mentioned the very fact he's betting here usually means a strong hand and if that's the case I want to give him the chance to 3-bet us on the flop, becasue he's OOP he'll generally take the initiative to avoid us free card with a hand like QT/Q9 etc although that's not always the case, so we can get in our raise on the turn anyway, if we call and he gives up on the turn, as he should with a lot of weak hands, then we lose our market totally.

    If you'd asked me whether it was overplay a year ago to 3-bet the turn with AK here, I'd have said yes in the vast majority of situations.

    However at this stage of the game AK is a monster on that board, depending on how the turn comes. I would expect him to call and x/r sometimes with worse Kings here and there are only 6 combos of KJ and 13 combos of sets to worry about (And to be fair I think his sets are severaly weighted down by the action).

    Compared to 8 combos each of worse K's. So really all I need is for him to call a x/r down to K9 here for a 3-bet to be profitable (and that's assuming he never bluffs).

    If he caps, that sucks and it'd depend on the opponent what I did but most of the time vs an erratice wierd opponent I'd call down but i can certainly find a fold vs some players.

    Additionally it's worth noticiing here our opponent is short-stacked so that means in this particular hand it kind of plays itself.
  • karlosibz


    Nice vid! Most of the things you explained I learned them by practising. Now I have a theory base of it :D

    Greetings from the spanish community.
  • Boomer2k10



    Thanks very much. Greetings to the Spanish Community
  • wuerstchenwilli


    hi boomer,

    i do not understand your arguements with the Ah9h Hand. You said, the K is a brick, but what card isn't a brick if it is not a king? Of course it doesn't complete a draw because there are none possible on that board except a FD. And a k is always scary for a Ax-Hand. If he holds a FD himself, most of them are Kx-FDs. If you are going to a SD on a rivered King you are ALWAYS going to a SD aren't you?

    And because of his Range: You said you give him a few Tx Holdings. Well AhT obviously is not possible, there for youre EQ is shown better than it might be.
  • wuerstchenwilli


    rF vs donk is unbalanced isn't it? Or do u sometimes rF and cbT with some hands?
  • Boomer2k10


    The K isn't a 100% brick no but it's not scary enough that I'm going to drop my hand here. To be honest though you're probably right, here I would see SD with pretty much all my SD-able hands. The pot is big, draws have bricked and our opponent has taken a wierd line generally means I'm going to go to SD a lot.

    Regarding balance you have to take into account that a donk is usually a hyper-unbalanced range so fighting back with a balanced range doesn't make much sense, however the deception gained by just calling donk bets forcing them to act OOP on the turn is often a very good way of playing the hand.

    Raising immedaitely is fine if you think your opponent will react to aggression as you'd like. However keep in mind the pot is small so allowing your opponent to bet off gains more value and you can always try and bluff a later street or see if he gives up on the turn
  • ZeroDegrees


    Thx for this Boomer! 2 questions:

    1. When u have Ah9h on the ThTx4h flop; how do the raise for free turn card compares to the flop call?

    2. The raise on the flop with AK on a KJ2o board made me sick;). This can't be right normally?! I'm guessing it fitted that session's mode.
  • Boomer2k10


    1) The free card raise is a move I pretty much never use in a heads up pot because it turns your hand face up and is really easy to play against. In a multi-way pot I'm happy to do this but but in a heads-up pot

    2) Any Particular Reason because I don't see how raising TPTK on the flop is ever bad? And on this board I'd say just peeling is a clearly inferior play. See comment 18 for my reasons but here's a summary:

    I realise the default line is to wait until the turn however this is a board where we have very little in the way of peeling range, maybe some low pps, and our opponent is most likely stronger than usual becasue of board texture. If he 3-bets the flop which he is more likely to do with a stronger range we can still raise the turn anyway.

    Be very wary about always sticking to default lines when an alternate line may be better. If the board was K52 then sure calling and raising the turn becomes more attractive as we have a bigger peeling range and his range is going to be weaker but on Big/Big/Little boards, waiting until the turn often represents exactly what it is.
  • ZeroDegrees


    You're right. I play 0.25/0.50 and 0.50/1 FR now and there are a lot of donkbets. They must have become popular recently or it may be that I changed site (stars). On this limit I will count his bet as a vb from now. But on micro I chose the cf rr turn line.