Logic Knot - Part 6 - Blind Defense 3: Attacking the Flop

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Logic Knot continues with yet another episode. Blind defense doesn't end preflop. This time Boomer will talk about how to regain the value you use preflop when not 3betting by attacking the flop.


Logic Knot series Theory Video

Comments (12)

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  • FishermansFriend


    Enjoy the next episode of Logic Knot!

    Please keep the comments in English!
  • HamburgmeinePerle


    relly great video and nice that you mentioned the recommenfdations of the ORC in the beginning as well.

    I personally do steal a lot looser fom CO and especially BU now and I do defend my BB more liberally, anyway I recently saw a vid from kobeyard in that he said that position and playability is not so improtant in FL und especially if i's getting HU you should look for your equity rather than overrating playability and stealing anything that has just a little bit of connectedness/suitedness.

    I don't really know what's the best way now, probably I'm just going to find a compromise between the recommendations of the two of you.

    I also don't know for which stakes your recommendations are. 2/4 an above?! Or even 3/6, 5/T and above?

    What kobeyard also said is that you have to consider the exceedingly high rake on these low stakes and therefore you have to be much tighter than you can be on 10/20+.

    The ORC is too tight probably, but I don't know if it's far too tight or just a little.

    The problem I have is that I can't find it out by trying it as you need to have huge samplesizes for that and you can't just say "oh well let's try it, we'll see as you won't get any indications until you have played more than a million hands or sth like that.
  • Boomer2k10


    At the risk of selling myself a little short kobeyard is a superior player to me :)

    However I will disagree that position and playability are not that important. Sure they are not as important as they are in big bet games such as NLHE and PLO however you are always going to be more profitable in position than out of position.

    He is correct that just going "Hey Sooted" and stealing/3-betting on the button without realising why you're doing it is going to be an exercise in annoyance and failure for the long term but if you're looking at it from an equity standpoint suitedness adds about 4% to your overall pot equity so there is some overlap.

    I think your idea of a compromise arrangement is perfect because it's what is best for you. Just because I, or even kobeyard, say something it doesn't mean it's right for you. At the end of the day if you can develop a play style you're happy with, feels comfortable and does well for yourself it doesn't really matter what anyone else says. I just try and put over what's worked for me.

    I've pitched this video and OR standards for really anywhere 2/4+ on Stars. Each limit has it's own factors changing how you may think. For Example @ 5/T on stars it's a 2/5 structure and a lot of the players are actually good (Pretty sure TPiranha's currently regging 5/T) so you're simply not going to get away with playing like a lunatic especially give 5/T rake on Stars is pretty high.

    Regarding the Rake there are still players making significant mistakes at these levels and on some sites at 2/4 he rake is as low as it gets until you hit 10/20 so the difference in skill level may actually, long term, make up for that rake difference. The overall difference between 2/4 and 10/20 on Stars is only about 0.7BB/100 and I'm pretty sure I have that sort of extra edge over a 2/4 table than I do over a standard 10/20 table.

    I would say if you're a little uncomfortable, start with a default range you're happy with and then, if you think the BB is a target, you can loosen up a bit and see how you feel. I very rarely play 100% set ranges so if you set yourself say a default "I should pretty much always play these hands" range and then change it based on opponent that may work well for you

    Thanks for watching and your comments
  • HamburgmeinePerle


    irst of all, thanks to your detailed and quick response!

    I really love that you react within a few hours, great job!!

    "not that improtant" is of yourse not quantifiable. I meant he said by far not that improtant as in NLHE or especially PLO.

    Of yourse it's better to play IP and I recognize it by myself that it's really great being in position most of the time, even when having the initiative I'm felling quite uncomfortable beiung OOP especially on Turn or River.

    Well, of course I do not have to copy preflopstandards exactly from someone, anyway, I don't know what's the best way to play preflop and I can't simulateor calculate these spots, you just need to have a databse for it.

    I do adapt to my opponents, especially the BB, but I do have a standard range as well as you say. Since watching your videos I really become much looser especially in late positions and I at least do believe that I have a good felling if a hand is good to play in this or that spot or if it isn't, but I could be absolutely wrong in some spots, I just don't know it...

    and that's my problem with it, so I have to transfer ranges recommended by coaches and trust them.

    Do you have sch huge databases that you can prove that the bottom part of your range is profitable according to different positions?

    One example: I saw you making a usersessionreview and someone openfolded QTo from MP and you called him a absolute nit :)

    I personally do openraise it since then but I never did that before, as it's not standing in the ORC and even most Coaches folded it sitting in MP.

    So I don't know what I should do there, don't know who is right ;)

    maybe you are playing rather a Lagstyle?!

    You probably can't solve my problems but I hope you can understand my situation ;)

    So I just keep on playing "in the middle" of you and the ORC, that can't be so wrong certainly...
  • Boomer2k10


    Thanks for your kind comments :)

    You're probably right that I play what is probably a slightly laggier style than may be norm but I don't think I'm out of line by any means in most situations although occasionally I do have to reign it in, especially if I'm only on a couple of tables.

    I don't really have a massive database to fall back on as my old PC fried w/ my database on it but my ranges basically are what I've "added on" to a standard ORC from Winning In Tough Holdem' Games along with discussion and fine-tuning with Coaches and basically just my experiences of the games, that said I doubt I would have a large enough sample size anyway, it would have to run into the millions of hands along with the fact each situation is unique would be difficult to analyze anyway, (i.e. 85s may not be a default button open but if I'm against a weak blind I might open it but how many times do I need to do this to have mathematical proof it's profitable?? That's a LOT of hands).

    I remember that QT hand. Usually if I'm THAT emphatic about something it's a little tongue-in-cheek :) but yes I'd open that from MP in almost any line-up at the stakes I play.

    I can certainly understand your situation as I've been in a similar one before myself.

    I wouldn't try too much to focus on which one is "right" as there are many "right ways" to play poker. There are guys playing 30/60+ who still play a 29/20-ish style and there are others who will play closer to 35/25 or even 40/30+, however their individual play is tailored to each of these styles and their reasoning behind what they do is equally valid.

    I'm happy that you seem to be developing your game and really trying to get the most out of all the content here and best of luck to you with it, you'll deserve the success you'll attain.
  • RedHeater


    "I recently saw a vid from kobeyard in that he said that position and playability is not so improtant in FL und especially if i's getting HU you should look for your equity rather than overrating playability and stealing anything that has just a little bit of connectedness/suitedness."

    Hamburger could you give the title of this video please? I am interested in this idea of choosing hands with high equity over playability for pots that are likely to end up being heads up.

    FWIW I think most of the regs will be opening QTo in mid position at 3/6+. It has been profitable for me, although it wasn't when raised UTG and I don't tend to play it there now.
  • HamburgmeinePerle


    thanks once more Boomer!

    RedHeater, it was one of the usersessionreviews of "Stane1985" but I'm not sure wich of them, probably the first (but it's in German, Platin status)
  • RedHeater


    OK Thanks. I will probably get platinum back in July or August but I don't speak German!
  • Boomer2k10



    LEARN!! :)
  • wuerstchenwilli


    I have't seen the vid so far but I red the coments and followed the discussion about Position and Equity and how they influence our OR-Patterns from late Position. The Thing is: The better the player, the more EQ counts. If someone realise you are openraising with 100% from the button, and he is good, then he knows he sometimes has SD-value with K or even Q high. A Fish doesn't realises his SD-Eq. Therefore: loosen up against Fish and play tighter or better leave the table against Sharks.Beside this arguement ofcourse about 2-4% Edge over the fish adds up and especially Scons have got high IOs, thats why I play egainst some Preflop loose, postflop weak tight Fish 100% S-2gappers. And against some Shark - depending on the Gameflow and our history - I sometimes Fold K7o.
  • wuerstchenwilli


    I do not understand why flattening 100% cannot exploit vunerabilities. Some are very vulnerable on crF. With there wide Ranges and no Ahigh or PPs they are lost and u can easily attack boards like 5s6sKc. The missed nearly 80%, wont call A high down on a nother spade and therefore give up an incredible big part of there Range on the turn. Of course you shouldn't overdo this. It depends on your image and on the fold to crF value. But i missed one of these Purebluff Situations and I missed the stronger peeling Range you mentioned at the beginning. Which are the bottom ends of the value hands you call down?
  • Boomer2k10



    I probably wasn't clear about this but by not being able to exploit I mean Pre-Flop. If someone's out of line preflop or plays really poorly in 3-bet pots then by taking the 100% call line you're denying yourself this potential advantage so you should always be careful not to just go for the "I'm trying to play balanced/equilibrium/whatever" line where a more explotative line is more profitable.

    The lower stakes you go the less likely it is your opponents are going to be playing anything like balanced/GTO strategy and thus playing a balanced/GTO strategy yourself is actually hideously suboptimal and you're passing up a lot of profit unless of course you can use it to gain a bigger exploit later in the hand (i.e. player always fire's 2-3 barrels when no aggression shown at him).

    Regarding value hands to call down with it's usually very dependant on board texture. I will just flat call down low pairs sometimes and I'll also wait until the turn with big hands if the board is extremely condusive to 2-barrelling so really I tend not to set myself lines until I see the opponent/board texture.

    Getting a x/c, x/c range to be very balanced is one of the hardest things in LHE as every move you take defines your hand a little bit more so it is important to mix ranges somewhat. have you x/c, x/c be exclusively A-High's and worse is going to get you into a lot of trouble so occasionally it's ok to go passive with a hand like 2nd pair crappy kicker or something similar just so it's not hyper easy to play vs you. There's only so much you can do OOP though

    Thanks for your question