Seeing with the Villains Eyes

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NeverBluffing30 goes into how we ourselves are percieved at the table, and how our percieved range and image is something we should always be aware of.


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Comments (28)

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  • EuanM


    Enjoy the latest production from Neverbluffing where our perceived image is explored from the point-of-view of our opponents!

    Feedback and comments welcomed as always!
  • Brockie


    great Video!
    Interesting thoughts and a very clear analysis of the hands.
  • CarpeDiem777


    This was sick.
  • CarpeDiem777


    lets just say u 4bet to 130-140 oon the flop with the q9 off instead of flatting. What is the villains range for jamming?I mean will he really ever jam with no equity?Surely he just has to give up because the next bet would have to be a push from him.
  • Kana54


    I'm a low stakes player, i understand some part of what you explain,it's possible i don't understand the all but i've a question about the last hand;

    You 've said that you represent a hand value like KQ , and i ask my self :

    -Would you check raise turn if he bets or just let it down ?

    - With KQ at the river, have we a value bet here ? The Ace is a brick at the most of the time for you ?

    - Q high is probably the best hand , bet is a security for making fold 5x ... random small pair ?

    I'vegot another question with J9o

    - When you call the 3bet, you're representing the hand you've got, and i can't imagine my opponent would spew. I've don't really understand the hand, but i think the best sentence for resume the video is : if you've got value represent a obvious bluff. If you've R represent a obvious monster :)

    I'm french sorry for my bad english, thank you , i think it's the best video i've ever seen.
  • Kana54


    @carpediem : What you will represent in 4betting ? You do the same thing like opponent, if he can do the same reflexion, and jam with R, we 're just fucked. But 4betting very strong , to make him see we're commited could be a good idee.
  • Jan217


    very cool lines, will definately look for a few spots to use these.
  • SryImNoob


    25:00 u said he barrely never fold to a c/r and he's stubborn when he make a bet, but he actually bet in 3players, is range of calling/jamming vs a c/r is not so wide dont u think so? actually maybe the c/r stats happen more in a hu situation. obv at his eyes u represents a really strong hand to c/r a 2tone board Khigh
  • SryImNoob


    nice video thx ^^
  • CarpeDiem777


    @Kana54 :I understand the line he is taking and it is very advanced. But my question is :If we 4-bet to like 130-140 isnt he in a tough spot if he has nothing ?I dont think many players will 5-bet jam with nothing...of course this is coming from mtt player ))
  • NeverBluffing30


    @CarpeDiem: Yes, as I mentioned very briefly during the hand, there would be nothing wrong with 4-betting the flop. I would expect it to have a very high success rate.

    Kana makes the key point showing why flatting can be better for our perceived range than 4-betting. Ask yourself: What hands are you actually 4-betting here for value? I don't think we are value 4-betting a hand like K6 for top two (seems much better to flat and let him bluff turn). On this dry of a board, are we even 4-betting 66 or 44 for value? So, vs. a good handreader, our perceived 4betting range =
    a) very very few combos of value hands
    b) some bluffs
    -he may be aware that we can put him on a lot of air here and very litttle value, therefore he may recognize it's a decent 4-bet bluff spot for us. So it's not out of the realm of possibility that a good player will try to go last in what is basically a game of chicken and 5-bet bluff here. I completely agree with you that the vast majority of the time this will not happen. He will usually just fold. So 4-betting will definitely be +EV.

    I argue that flatting will be more +EV because when we flat, we eliminate all of the air combos from our perceived range, leaving only strong or medium strong made hands (and a few combos of OESDs). When we strengthen our perceived range, our bluff success rate should go up on a later street.
  • NeverBluffing30


    @Kana54: On the J9o hand, yep, I agree this is a dillemma similar to the one we face with the Q9o hand. By flatting, we almost always have a solid made hand and almost never have air. But if we 4-bet, he'll almost always fold. Any size we choose basically shuts him out. If we are going to 4-bet, then I prefer making it extremely small (to something like 140, so he has room to potentially bluff shove to 390 and have the perception of fold equity).

    I think it's pretty close between flatting or making a small 4-bet like that.
  • NeverBluffing30


    @SryImNoob: Yes, the fact that he's betting into 4 certainly has a significant impact. But I disagree when you say we look very strong when we c/r. I think when we overcheck and risk having the flop check through on a two-tone board, he's likely to severely discount sets, two pairs, and AK type hands from our perceived range. Honestly, how often are you checking a set or two pair here on the flop with only 1 villain left to act in a 4 way pot?

    When we check 4 ways with only 1 villain left to act, on a two-tone board, then all of a sudden we c/r, in his eyes I actually think we look like we are completely f.o.s. a lot of the time. He may think that we think he's just betting his position because he is last to act, therefore he has a lot of air, therefore we might be bluffing a bunch of the time.
  • Jan217


    In the Q9o hand how are you reacting if he bets the turn? On one hand he can recognise that your range is always made hands and only be continuing with a tight range so you should fold. On the other hand he might not be handreading so well (tilt etc) and since his range was so bluff heavy he only needs to continue bluffing a smallish % of the time to make a shove profitable.

    How about if he just flats your c/r? It seems to me that he can take exactly the same approach of flatting and repping a made hand, except he gets the oppertunity to do it first. I dont think a turn float is out of the question either, so are you barrelling off or are you shutting down?
  • Sneijder1091


    #14=> 43:00 He says he is planning on bluffing Turn und Rivers because Vilains Value Range to calldown is so small compared to his weak Top Pairs, midpairs...
    Very nice video!
    Liked your deep thinking process!
  • stylus20


    finally a video that isn't standard abc poker! really liked it overall.

    only the cold3bet on the flop with 88 is a play that gets you in very sticky spot when the regular is thinking. you probalby wouldn't 3bet any of your nuthands in that spot, since you always want the recreational player behind you to overcall. so your play make you very vulnerable in my opinion. on the other hand all other options suck as well, when you overcall the reg prolly will stop bluffing, but you're 3way in a huge pot without initiative with an underpair. guess the 3bet is alright with a clean image, but a fold wouldn't be horrible either.

    keep up the good work!


    nice Vid and also nice Hud work.
    I like your popups...are they selfmade? and what does Fi und Fo mean in the post flop HUD.
  • NeverBluffing30


    @TTSIP Fi & Fo are fold vs. cbet in position & out of position, respectively. I find it useful to separate these two numbers as some villains can diverge widely.

    I got some HUD ideas from friends but yes, they are self-made.
  • NeverBluffing30


    @stylus20 You make a good point. I think both options (cold 3-betting or flatting the reg's raise) look very strong on a relatively dry board. If we do flat with our value hands and the recreational player does come along, I would prefer a turn lead by us (basically to a size that will valuetown the recreational player for the rest of his stack on the turn and river), as I except the reg to recognize our flop coldcall indicates a very strong range, therefore, the turn is likely to check through very frequently.

    Given that, with our bluff range after cold-calling on the flop, I think either leading the turn or leading the river will work fine. Both lines should get a lot of respect. With 88, I think we have enough SD value to check it down on some turn/river run-outs (low/low, blank/blank), but turn our hand it into a bluff on others (Q turn, A river, for example).
  • NeverBluffing30


    @Jan217 Vs. a good, thinking reg who is a good hand-reader, I would not c/r the turn. I think this type of villain will just give up almost always....I'd expect him to recognize that we're at the top part of our flop c/r range, therefore he should always give up with his air.

    If the villain, however, were a marginal reg who doesn't actively handread or think deeply, or a 16-tabler, or the type of villain who can't help themselves sometimes when they have air but to keep fighting for a pot when checked to, then I absolutely would c/r the turn 100% of the time vs. them, when I have such a strong read that such a huge % of their range at this point is air.
  • IronPumper


    for sure one of the better vids in a while for diamondmember - thx^^

    What you think at 32.00 btw. about villain`s turnjam vs. your perceived range?
    Maybe it is better than checkinback b/c almost noe one would bluff the river with a X/R_ch_Bet-Line OTR, so there is no point in giveing free cards aways while expecting to be very mostly ahead vs. your perceived range... I am just not sure...
  • IronPumper



    your perceived range after flatting the 3bet are madehands and potentially some aircombos which wanna float the 3bet (when turn goes ch/ch) -> hence I do get for sure your turncall, but imo the rivercall is then longterm on average -ev w/o a read that someone can spazz out like this b/c obv. after your turncall your range looks only like madehands which give villain no credit at all...
  • GreedIsGo0d


    the q9 hand is just complete spew, there is really no justification for the checkraise being a good line, and calling is just lol - no matter what your perceived range is.

    1) if you checkraise this "shit" you have a way to wide checkraising range here. the best you can hope for is to turn a gutshot.
    2) you have a lot of BDFD in your range which will turn more equity in case he calls.
    3) you show profit by minstealing, there is no need to go apeshit postflop without equity.
  • NeverBluffing30


    @IronPumper - at 32:00. If he expects a huge % of my range to be air, or maybe now hands like weak gutters, then I think there's value for him in checkingback and keeping my bluffs involved. Protection is not a huge concern. I agree with you he shouldn't expect to induce a ton of bluffs, but still, I think the:

    Value of Checking Back > Value of Protection

    But it's close. It's hard to find many hands he's getting value from when he bets.
  • NeverBluffing30


    @GreedisGood I agree with you that it looks like spew, but I actually have a lot of experience in exactly this kind of spot on this kind of board, and I can assure you that in the games I play vs. this type of villain, it is very clearly +EV.

    I also agree with your point about range construction for my c/r range and perhaps it'd be nice to have a BDFD along with our BDSD, but in my experience, I can c/r here extremely widely and profit, and I'm not as worried about constructing a GTO range as I am in turning a profit now. I just don't think this type of situation comes up often enough to the point where they'll be able to adjust.
  • GreedIsGo0d


    maybe i should clarify myself, i don't think a checkraise as PFR on this board is bad, doing it with Q9o is just bad.

    it really has nothing to do with a GTO range or adjusting, its just basic equity and the increase of profitability of bluffs. what do you think is more profitable, doing it with Q9o, or Q9s? or maybe even QTs/QJs/JTs? how many hands do you want to put in your checkraising range?

    you chose to do it with a hand which really has zero equity, and also zero backdoor equity (a gutshot counts a more or less as zero, ok, the queen is good sometimes).

    when you minraise you have so many hands in your range which can turn better equity, even bottom pair has more outs than a gutshot, not even talking about bottom pair + backdoor flushdraw, you can turn a monster! (then you could also call the flop 3bet and shove over his turn bet).

    i do have a very aggressive checkraising game myself, which should be obvious by my comment. so, i am not saying a checkraise here is bad, just the hand.

    but lets leave it here, i am usually not even commenting, if you don't play on stars, you can drop me a mail if you want.
  • GreedIsGo0d


    maybe i should also add, beside my really harsh criticism, i really like the everything else about the vid.

    i have one line in my notes for each reg which says "my image", can be pretty useful to remember what shit he saw you doing. hehe
  • NeverBluffing30


    I completely agree with your analysis of properly bluff-range construction. In my estimation, in this particular spot, any two cards will show a profit with a c/r and multi-barrell. If there's a profit to be had on the table in a spot where I don't expect to ever get exploited in the future, I'm going to reach down and pick up that profit rather than leaving it on the table. So how many hands do we want to put in our c/r range: basically any two cards right now. As you mention, if he sees us showdown, or we recognize we've taken this line a few times in a very similar spot, we can always adjust. But for now, in my opinion it's a very profitable c/r with ATC.

    Your comments about taking notes on your own image in villain's hud are very useful. Along the same lines, anytime I take a line that might look "nonstandard" or surprising to villain (and thus noteworthy for him), I'll take a note that says in caps "SAW YOU......"