So, You Want to Grind 180's - Week 1

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TomSom87 begins his new coaching series with a live session on PokerStars and instruction on how to approach the 180's he's so fond of crushing in his live sessions For more details on the coaching series please see the coaching thread:


coaching Live Video MTSNG podcast PokerStars series So You Want To Grind 180

Comments (17)

newest first
  • Varosky


    Min 7:00 K7o is really push? What is your range here? Ty :)
  • 177272


    Can you please post the link to your push/fold charts. Cheers
  • xXBiGFishhXx


    no hay videos en español de 45 y 180 man turbo??
  • Txusco11


    Hi, min 22:00, is not better to do a cooperative to knock out the short stack with 88? That way u can fold vs a sove from the BB, whio is the big stack and I don´t expect to push light after your call.
  • tomsom87


    #1 - Yeh think K7o is a push here. We're not going to be worried about ICM here because the min cash is a refund and all the money is on the final table. I think that we have a lot more fold equity vs randoms too who will be more inclined to fold and make the min cash.

    Just looking at Nash in cEV mode for this spot it suggests that we should shove: 22+,A2s+,A5o+,K6s+,KTo+,Q9s+,QTo+,J9s+,T9s,98s

    However this counts on all the stacks calling behind optimally which just won't happen. This has the bb for example calling with 33% of hands (including K4s and 87s which I just don't see happening.)

    So if we adjust our range to assume players behind calling more realistic ranges (I have the reg on the button calling 20% and the rest calling between 11-17%) we get a shoving range of: (59.3%) 22+,A2+,K2s+,K5o+,Q2s+,Q8o+,J2s+,J7o+,T3s+,T7o+,95s+,97o+,84s+,86o+,74s+,76o,63s+,65o,53s+,43s

    Couple this with the fact that we might be willing a take a slightly -cEV edge here (the blinds about to go up and through us, so in 4 hands we will be left with 3bb) then I think that K7o is a pretty clear shove.

    As for my actual in game shoving range, I don't think I would stray too far from the range posted above, I might shove a few more K and Qx hands but that would be about it.
  • tomsom87


    #4 I actually think looking back at this that flatting the original shove and calling the bb shove will probably be slightly better. Using the limited sample of 11 hands we have him playing 25/25/40 so there's probably no way I'm ever folding 88 bvb with 15bb, if the guy had played 0/0/0 over 11 then maybe, but still seems unlikely.

    I would expect the bb to actually jam pretty wide if we just call (or at least I would). If I flat the sb it seems unlikely that I have anything vs a 1.8bb shove. If I flat and the bb expects me fold to a shove loads then they get to win a 7k pot and it costs them 1400 to do so. And even the times they do get called by the sb they a) have equity and b) still have 7bb left if they lose.

    From our point of view this is 100% just a cooler and I'm going to need a cast iron reason to get away from this.
  • tomsom87


    #2/#5 - Thanks for posting for me.

    Please also see my post here (to be read in conjunction with the charts):
  • Katiusa1


    This chart is good for normal speed SNGs? Or we can push tighter because the BB increase three times slower and we have more time to get a better hand to push.
  • tomsom87


    The chart is just optimal strategy if everyone at the table is playing perfect push / call, so in that sense yes. We would just have to adjust our ranges based on the players behind (how wide / tight they calling) as we normally would in a turbo.

    In reg speeds I would be less inclined to take some of the looser / slightly -EV shoves though for the reasons that you stated, particularly if it was early on in the blind level and it wasn't about to increase / hit me. I would probably still be prepared to go wider than the charts with 6bb or less though.

    Sorry it's a bit of a wash out answer, there's lots of different considerations. You just have to work out what feels right really, obviously I would be inclined to jam much tighter with a table full of regs and much wider with a table of randoms.
  • Alexa25


    Hello tomsom87,
    Great vid! I was wondering if it is possible to get the Poker Variance Tools Sheet please?
    thank you
  • tomsom87


    I'm not sure how people get the times from the videos into here, but if you look at 1:22:53 the 2nd post from the top by ninja21 is the link you need.
  • tomsom87


    And I just found out that you just type it in and it works :D
  • Alexa25


    tomsom87 you´re talking about the spreadsheet about ranges.. I'm asking the one that you used for calculating the ABI called Poker Variance Tools Sheet :) Thanks :)
  • Alexa25


    Found it!!!
    Hope it's helpful for you guys. Enjoy :)
  • Jadzkaa


    hi! Why didn't you push A8s from cutoff? Was that a misclick? You had one raiser and pretty nice hand. Great video btw! Thanks
  • FlipFlop123


    3:11 with the fours is it really good to pay there?